<trackbot> Date: 08 July 2015

I'll sing your praises too, Ben

except your screen name is too long for me to type

discussing objections to user story 2.1 Profile Management

Ben trying to explain his understanding of Tantek's objection

(we need Tantek)

and ... Ben, Kevin, Tantek (?) opinion that the profile management should not be for v1 of API ... but yes, maybe for v2

<ben_thatmustbeme> I don't remember the exact conversation tantek mentions via github, but i would interpret it as something that should be internal to the implementation or extension

<ben_thatmustbeme> the set of values that would need to be created for this to be implemented would be quite large

lehawes: wonders if these are actually 'objections' or if they are "back-burnered"?
... maybe we start a new status of "put off until v2"

<ben_thatmustbeme> thus i can see his argument that profile management should be something handled later

AnnB: in enterprise we really need to manage profiles

Ben: this story seems to be less about managing one's profile, or federating, and more about the user being able to update their profile from any app

AnnB: I like Ben's rewrite of the story .. to get away from the English nits of which exact fields one would add

lehawes: what I think I'm hearing is that the actual vocabulary used, which fields, is important for the Profile Federation story, not the "plain" create and update one's profile story
... is the agreement between terms needed for profile terms work that the vocabulary task force would do?

<ben_thatmustbeme> http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card

Ben: h-card doesn't specify how the content is formatted

<melvster> I just want to note, we implemented this with SoLiD and demoed it at the F2F. We were told implementations make a difference.

Ann: knows almost nothing about vocabularies ... asks, is there a mapping between microformat terms and other vocabs for names / addresses / etc?

yes, melvster .. I think there is focus on having implementations

lehawes and I are just trying to understand the basics of how this works

wish to heck you had a mic!

<ben_thatmustbeme> melvster, implementations definitely make a difference, but remember, implementations don't decide user stories. implementations are great informatoin on what works and what doesn't

lehawes: I'd like to see vocabulary task force to make some mappings between the likely vocabs, choose one ..

AnnB: but .. if we choose ONE .. aren't we limiting ourselves?

lehawes: actually, no mappings yet

AnnB: I don't get the part about "choose one"

lehawes: choose one as foundation
... think of profile as database with a variety of fields .. name / address / etc
... all profiles have those fields
... we need to choose the basic initial set

<melvster> I just looked at the last SoLiD app I wrote. It uses 15 vocabularies. Starting with one might be nice, but it doesnt scale to anything more than very simple user stories. TimBL pointed this out in 2010 in the XG

lehawes: for what one needs for basic profile
... good point, melvster

AnnB: and that echoes my concern as well

<ben_thatmustbeme> melvster++

<Loqi> melvster has 17 karma

AnnB: no worries.. TimBL is all about extensibility

<lehawes> melvster: Good point and well-taken. I'm assuming that there must be one vocal that has more/better elements than others. Not perfect, but serviceable as a starting point.

AnnB: back this user story .. is this more we need to do to resolve objections on it?
... more to do, or put off until v2?

lehawes: yes, put off to v2, but vocab TF should work on, so we're ready to go

Ben: yes, this will be important

<melvster> what is "v2"

<melvster> no one seems to know

<ben_thatmustbeme> melvster, the plan is to get an initial version of the API out and working before including additional functionality at a later date (b2)

<ben_thatmustbeme> /b2/v2/

<lehawes> melvster: we're talking about V2 of the Social API.

AnnB: proposal: put off user story Profile Management until API v2, but IG Vocabulary Task Force will work on proposing a basic set of profile attributes vocabulary

<ben_thatmustbeme> +1

<melvster> -1

<lehawes> +1

why not, melvster?

<melvster> it's already implemented, I think it's the only implemented user story

<ben_thatmustbeme> no it isn't

hmm .. maybe we need to discuss this further when you can actually talk

<ben_thatmustbeme> several user stories are implemented in various systems, and were demod a F2F2

<melvster> if not the only, one of the very few

right

<melvster> they were not actually implemented many were just proposed

<melvster> this is live and workign

<melvster> but that aside

<ben_thatmustbeme> also, implementation of a user story does not mean it needs to be done in the API

let's not go off on how many implementations we have ..

<melvster> the support was very strong, the argument of 'twitter and instagram doesnt do X' I dont think is compelling

for right now, I'm going to leave that proposal out there, and we will re-visit it when more people can be on the call

OK?

<melvster> sure!

<ben_thatmustbeme> melvster, do you have a phone? you can have webex call you

IOW, a land line or a cell?

<melvster> oh cool

<melvster> i dont have webex set up tho

<melvster> i guess you can strike my -1 as im not on the call ...

<aaronpk> here's the way I see it. I likely will never want to use an app to update my profile on my website, I'll just use whatever tools my website provides (for me that happens to be editing html, for others that might be using wordpress admin interface). the point of the social API is to create an ecosystem around social data

<melvster> i added it to the issue

melvster .. look at agenda .. scroll down to the webex info .. click the link .. it'll set up .. doesn't take too long

<lehawes> Thanks aaronpk; glad you're jumping in and welcome

click "Join the meeting" and you'll be presented with audio options

hi Aaron!

<lehawes> aaronpk: so do you think that a standardized profile vocabulary SHOULD be included in V1 of the Social API?

<aaronpk> nope, because I will likely never want to use the API to update my profile

hmm, aaronpk ... you've added a new twist

<aaronpk> heh

Ben: this is essentially what I thought Tantek's objection was

<lehawes> OK, so this is really an issue for the Federation API, as I originally suspected.

you think the story is around HOW you update your profile, rather than what's in the profile?

<aaronpk> this is analogous to the OAuth 2 WG's decision to leave application registration out of the core spec

scribe: which is entirely unrelated to the actual terms used

Ben: user story should be about how you get that data ...
... how you fetch the profile

lehawes: whole different user story

<melvster> ' Java is not working.'

lehawes: maybe we need to break this into several user stories

oh nooo, melvster

<aaronpk> in OAuth 2, you need to register an application to get a client_id and client_secret. they ended up leaving that out of the core spec saying implementation of client registration is up to the service to decide how to do it.

lehawes: not break it, ... rather, add another

<ben_thatmustbeme> user story for v1 of federation API needed (fetching a profile across federated sites)

melvster, I'll be happy to try and get you going w webex some other time

crucial you figure that out

<lehawes> We should leave existing Profile user story as is and table it for V2 of the Social API.

<melvster> ty (failed in firefox and chrome) will follow on irc for today

dang!

let me know sometime when you have a mic, and I'll call you

<melvster> will do!

<lehawes> Vocabulary TF should propose a standardized base profile vocabulary and we should write an additional user story that addresses federation of profile information from one or more systems to another. This would be in support of Federation API v1.

Ben: many of these user stories overlap between "social" and "federation"

<aaronpk> did anybody mention that there are already standardized base vocabularies?

Ben: hard to break them up

yes, aaronpk

<melvster> we use FOAF / SIOC

<ben_thatmustbeme> aaronpk: many standards, thats the problem

<lehawes> Yes, aaronpk. Which one did you have in mind ((if any)?

and my question -- because I'm essentially ignorant on this -- is what are we supposed to do?

<melvster> vocab != standard

<ben_thatmustbeme> https://xkcd.com/927/

<aaronpk> vcard

we cannot expect the world to use just one

<melvster> we use vcard too actually

<lehawes> We made an initial list of these potential vocabularies and presented it before the AC a couple of years ago (in Italy?)

<lehawes> The list is still accessible on the wiki somewhere.

<lehawes> aaronpk: today we have talked about both vcard and chard.

<melvster> facebook have a vocab (ogp) as does google (schema.org)

<lehawes> hcard

<melvster> the idea is to reuse the terms you want and mash them up

<melvster> you cant choose a base vocab because if there were 10 stakeholders more than 5 would disagree

SUMMARY: ... we propose...
... for Profile Management user story .. https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr/issues/1

<lehawes> Hey tantek! Were your ears burning? ;>)

SUMMARY: we suggest leaving the API work until v2

<melvster> when is v2?

SUMMARY: and the Vocab Task Force start now to work on a base set of terms for profile

<lehawes> AnnB: The profile base vocabulary will also be critical to V1 of the Federation API

(dunno melvster)

<ben_thatmustbeme> melvster, in the fullness of time

scribe: and / or v1 of 'federated profile'

<melvster> ok, could be never then

haha, ben

<ben_thatmustbeme> melvster, it would be at some point after v1 is working

we can discuss more, this is just what the 3 of us have come up with

<tantek> hey lehawes - not quite - on for the #css wg telcon - and dealing with a dying laptop (drive) :(

scribe: now maybe we'll get some action ... as others get their dander up

<Loqi> tantek: elf-pavlik left you a message 6 hours, 55 minutes ago: could you please explain somewhere what do you mean by api v1 v2 ... ? melvster just asked about it and i also wanted to clarify i already some months ago, thx! http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-07-08/line/1436346256154

<lehawes> tantek: Yuk! Good luck with that HD.

trackbot, make minutes

<trackbot> Sorry, AnnB, I don't understand 'trackbot, make minutes'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.

trackbot, end meeting

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140  of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/:/,/
Succeeded: s/done/working/
No ScribeNick specified.  Guessing ScribeNick: AnnB
Inferring Scribes: AnnB

WARNING: No "Topic:" lines found.

Present: Larry_Hawes Ben_Roberts Ann_Bassetti

WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Found Date: 08 Jul 2015
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-social-minutes.html
People with action items: 

WARNING: No "Topic: ..." lines found!  
Resulting HTML may have an empty (invalid) <ol>...</ol>.

Explanation: "Topic: ..." lines are used to indicate the start of 
new discussion topics or agenda items, such as:
<dbooth> Topic: Review of Amy's report