15:15:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #social
15:15:36 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-social-irc
15:15:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:15:38 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #social
15:15:40 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SOCL
15:15:41 <trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
15:15:41 <trackbot> Date: 08 July 2015
15:15:42 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:15:52 <AnnB> I'll sing your praises too, Ben
15:16:01 <AnnB> except your screen name is too long for me to type
15:16:30 <AnnB> present: Larry Hawes, Ben Roberts, Ann Bassetti
15:17:08 <AnnB> discussing objections to user story 2.1 Profile Management
15:17:28 <AnnB> Ben trying to explain his understanding of Tantek's objection
15:17:37 <AnnB> (we need Tantek)
15:18:53 <AnnB> and ... Ben, Kevin, Tantek (?) opinion that the profile management should not be for v1 of API ... but yes, maybe for v2
15:19:37 <ben_thatmustbeme> I don't remember the exact conversation tantek mentions via github, but i would interpret it as something that should be internal to the implementation or extension
15:20:00 <ben_thatmustbeme> the set of values that would need to be created for this to be implemented would be quite large
15:20:10 <AnnB> lehawes: wonders if these are actually 'objections' or if they are "back-burnered"?
15:20:25 <AnnB> .... maybe we start a new status of "put off until v2"
15:21:22 <ben_thatmustbeme> thus i can see his argument that profile management should be something handled later
15:22:38 <AnnB> AnnB: in enterprise we really need to manage profiles
15:23:25 <AnnB> Ben: this story seems to be less about managing one's profile, or federating, and more about the user being able to update their profile from any app
15:26:07 <AnnB> AnnB: I like Ben's rewrite of the story .. to get away from the English nits of which exact fields one would add
15:28:30 <AnnB> lehawes:  what I think I'm hearing is that the actual vocabulary used, which fields, is important for the Profile Federation story, not the "plain" create and update one's profile story
15:29:37 <AnnB> ... is the agreement between terms needed for profile terms work that the vocabulary task force would do?
15:29:48 <ben_thatmustbeme> http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card
15:31:03 <AnnB> Ben: h-card doesn't specify how the content is formatted
15:31:32 <melvster> I just want to note, we implemented this with SoLiD and demoed it at the F2F.  We were told implementations make a difference.
15:31:47 <AnnB> Ann: knows almost nothing about vocabularies ... asks, is there a mapping between microformat terms and other vocabs for names / addresses / etc?
15:32:11 <AnnB> yes, melvster .. I think there is focus on having implementations
15:32:38 <AnnB> lehawes and I are just trying to understand the basics of how this works
15:32:51 <AnnB> wish to heck you had a mic!
15:34:01 <ben_thatmustbeme> melvster: implementations definitely make a difference, but remember, implementations don't decide user stories.  implementations are great informatoin on what works and what doesn't
15:34:11 <ben_thatmustbeme> s/:/,
15:34:15 <AnnB> lehawes: I'd like to see vocabulary task force to make some mappings between the likely vocabs, choose one ..
15:34:31 <AnnB> AnnB: but .. if we choose ONE .. aren't we limiting ourselves?
15:34:50 <AnnB> lehawes:  actually, no mappings yet
15:35:15 <AnnB> AnnB: I don't get the part about "choose one"
15:35:28 <AnnB> lehawes: choose one as foundation
15:36:06 <AnnB> .... think of profile as database with a variety of fields .. name / address / etc
15:36:25 <AnnB> ... all profiles have those fields
15:36:37 <AnnB> ... we need to choose the basic initial set
15:36:48 <melvster> I just looked at the last SoLiD app I wrote.  It uses 15 vocabularies.  Starting with one might be nice, but it doesnt scale to anything more than very simple user stories.  TimBL pointed this out in 2010 in the XG
15:36:54 <AnnB> ... for what one needs for basic profile
15:37:12 <AnnB> lehawes:  good point, melvster
15:37:24 <AnnB> AnnB: and that echoes my concern as well
15:37:26 <ben_thatmustbeme> melvster++
15:37:29 <Loqi> melvster has 17 karma
15:37:45 <AnnB> ... no worries.. TimBL is all about extensibility
15:38:00 <lehawes> melvster: Good point and well-taken. I'm assuming that there must be one vocal that has more/better elements than others. Not perfect, but serviceable as a starting point.
15:38:17 <AnnB> ... back this user story .. is this more we need to do to resolve objections on it?
15:38:24 <AnnB> ... more to do, or put off until v2?
15:38:52 <AnnB> lehawes: yes, put off to v2, but vocab TF should work on, so we're ready to go
15:39:02 <AnnB> Ben:  yes, this will be important
15:39:32 <melvster> what is "v2"
15:39:36 <melvster> no one seems to know
15:40:22 <ben_thatmustbeme> melvster, the plan is to get an initial version of the API out and working before including additional functionality at a later date (b2)
15:40:28 <ben_thatmustbeme> /b2/v2/
15:40:48 <lehawes> melvster: we're talking about V2 of the Social API.
15:41:16 <AnnB> AnnB: proposal:  put off user story Profile Management until API v2, but IG Vocabulary Task Force will work on proposing a basic set of profile attributes vocabulary
15:41:41 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
15:41:41 <melvster> -1
15:41:50 <lehawes> +1
15:41:51 <AnnB> why not, melvster?
15:41:59 <melvster> it's already implemented, I think it's the only implemented user story
15:42:08 <ben_thatmustbeme> no it isn't
15:42:28 <AnnB> hmm .. maybe we need to discuss this further when you can actually talk
15:42:30 <ben_thatmustbeme> several user stories are implemented in various systems, and were demod a F2F2
15:42:31 <melvster> if not the only, one of the very few
15:42:36 <AnnB> right
15:42:45 <melvster> they were not actually implemented many were just proposed
15:42:49 <melvster> this is live and workign
15:42:51 <melvster> but that aside
15:43:04 <ben_thatmustbeme> also, implementation of a user story does not mean it needs to be done in the API
15:43:07 <AnnB> let's not go off on how many implementations we have ..
15:43:16 <melvster> the support was very strong, the argument of 'twitter and instagram doesnt do X' I dont think is compelling
15:43:35 <AnnB> for right now, I'm going to leave that proposal out there, and we will re-visit it when more people can be on the call
15:43:36 <AnnB> OK?
15:43:45 <melvster> sure!
15:43:56 <ben_thatmustbeme> melvster, do you have a phone? you can have webex call you
15:44:19 <AnnB> IOW, a land line or a cell?
15:44:35 <melvster> oh cool
15:44:44 <melvster> i dont have webex set up tho
15:45:08 <melvster> i guess you can strike my -1 as im not on the call ...
15:45:12 <aaronpk> here's the way I see it. I likely will never want to use an app to update my profile on my website, I'll just use whatever tools my website provides (for me that happens to be editing html, for others that might be using wordpress admin interface). the point of the social API is to create an ecosystem around social data
15:45:15 <melvster> i added it to the issue
15:45:51 <AnnB> melvster .. look at agenda .. scroll down to the webex info .. click the link .. it'll set up .. doesn't take too long
15:45:58 <lehawes> Thanks aaronpk; glad you're jumping in and welcome
15:46:21 <AnnB> click "Join the meeting"  and you'll be presented with audio options
15:46:28 <AnnB> hi Aaron!
15:46:49 <lehawes> aaronpk: so do you think that a standardized profile vocabulary SHOULD be included in V1 of the Social API?
15:47:05 <aaronpk> nope, because I will likely never want to use the API to update my profile
15:47:14 <AnnB> hmm, aaronpk ... you've added a new twist
15:47:21 <aaronpk> heh
15:47:29 <AnnB> Ben: this is essentially what I thought Tantek's objection was
15:47:32 <lehawes> OK, so this is really an issue for the Federation API, as I originally suspected.
15:48:04 <AnnB> you think the story is around HOW you update your profile, rather than what's in the profile?
15:48:27 <aaronpk> this is analogous to the OAuth 2 WG's decision to leave application registration out of the core spec
15:48:37 <AnnB> ... which is entirely unrelated to the actual terms used
15:48:56 <AnnB> Ben: user story should be about how you get that data ...
15:49:05 <AnnB> ... how you fetch the profile
15:49:18 <AnnB> lehawes:  whole different user story
15:49:26 <melvster> ' Java is not working.'
15:49:42 <AnnB> ... maybe we need to break this into several user stories
15:49:49 <AnnB> oh nooo, melvster
15:49:51 <aaronpk> in OAuth 2, you need to register an application to get a client_id and client_secret. they ended up leaving that out of the core spec saying implementation of client registration is up to the service to decide how to do it.
15:50:01 <AnnB> lehawes: not break it, ... rather, add another
15:50:28 <ben_thatmustbeme> user story for v1 of federation API needed (fetching a profile across federated sites)
15:50:33 <AnnB> melvster, I'll be happy to try and get you going w webex some other time
15:50:41 <AnnB> crucial you figure that out
15:50:42 <lehawes> We should leave existing Profile user story as is and table it for V2 of the Social API.
15:50:49 <melvster> ty (failed in firefox and chrome) will follow on irc for today
15:50:54 <AnnB> dang!
15:51:20 <AnnB> let me know sometime when you have a mic, and I'll call you
15:51:38 <melvster> will do!
15:51:46 <lehawes> Vocabulary TF should propose a standardized base profile vocabulary and we should write an additional user story that addresses federation of profile information from one or more systems to another. This would be in support of Federation API v1.
15:52:43 <AnnB> Ben: many of these user stories overlap between "social" and "federation"
15:52:45 <aaronpk> did anybody mention that there are already standardized base vocabularies?
15:52:47 <AnnB> ... hard to break them up
15:52:55 <AnnB> yes, aaronpk
15:53:01 <melvster> we use FOAF / SIOC
15:53:07 <ben_thatmustbeme> aaronpk: many standards, thats the problem
15:53:09 <lehawes> Yes, aaronpk. Which one did you have in mind ((if any)?
15:53:20 <AnnB> and my question -- because I'm essentially ignorant on this -- is what are we supposed to do?
15:53:22 <melvster> vocab != standard
15:53:23 <ben_thatmustbeme> https://xkcd.com/927/
15:53:28 <aaronpk> vcard
15:53:31 <AnnB> we cannot expect the world to use just one
15:53:39 <melvster> we use vcard too actually
15:53:53 <lehawes> We made an initial list of these potential vocabularies and presented it before the AC a couple of years ago (in Italy?)
15:54:05 <lehawes> The list is still accessible on the wiki somewhere.
15:54:27 <lehawes> aaronpk: today we have talked about both vcard and chard.
15:54:32 <melvster> facebook have a vocab (ogp) as does google (schema.org)
15:54:33 <lehawes> hcard
15:54:55 <melvster> the idea is to reuse the terms you want and mash them up
15:56:48 <melvster> you cant choose a base vocab because if there were 10 stakeholders more than 5 would disagree
15:56:55 <AnnB> SUMMARY:
15:56:58 <tantek> tantek has joined #social
15:57:09 <AnnB> .. we propose...
15:57:37 <AnnB> ... for Profile Management user story .. https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr/issues/1
15:57:41 <lehawes> Hey tantek! Were your ears burning? ;>)
15:58:02 <AnnB> ... we suggest leaving the API work until v2
15:58:10 <melvster> when is v2?
15:58:43 <AnnB> ... and the Vocab Task Force start now to work on a base set of terms for profile
15:58:48 <lehawes> AnnB: The profile base vocabulary will also be critical to V1 of the Federation API
15:58:53 <AnnB> (dunno melvster)
15:58:58 <ben_thatmustbeme> melvster, in the fullness of time
15:59:10 <AnnB> ... and / or v1 of 'federated profile'
15:59:14 <melvster> ok, could be never then
15:59:15 <AnnB> haha, ben
15:59:35 <ben_thatmustbeme> melvster, it would be at some point after v1 is done
15:59:37 <AnnB> we can discuss more, this is just what the 3 of us have come up with
15:59:47 <ben_thatmustbeme> s/done/working
15:59:52 <tantek> hey lehawes - not quite - on for the #css wg telcon - and dealing with a dying laptop (drive) :(
15:59:57 <AnnB> ... now maybe we'll get some action ... as others get their dander up
16:00:00 <Loqi> tantek: elf-pavlik left you a message 6 hours, 55 minutes ago: could you please explain somewhere what do you mean by api v1 v2 ... ? melvster just asked about it and i also wanted to clarify i already some months ago, thx! http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-07-08/line/1436346256154
16:00:16 <lehawes> tantek: Yuk! Good luck with that HD.
16:01:20 <AnnB> trackbot, make minutes
16:01:20 <trackbot> Sorry, AnnB, I don't understand 'trackbot, make minutes'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
16:01:40 <AnnB> trackbot, end meeting
16:01:40 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:01:40 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
16:01:48 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:01:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-social-minutes.html trackbot
16:01:49 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:01:49 <RRSAgent> I see no action items