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<trackbot> Date: 30 June 2015
<scribe> scribe: timeless
[ Scribe is working on thinking about how to take notes ]
[ we'll get back to this later ]
SteveZ: i think we need phone
calls for planning purposes if nothing else, they don't have to
last an hour
... w/ the exception of David Singer, it looks like Wednesday
at 8am (pacific) would be better
... i think there's a need for the telephone conference
... i've seen email discussions go on forever (and i'm guessing
the same thing happens in github)
... i think we do more or less Asynchronous decision making,
since we have a proposal "can you live with this"
... i'd be happy to hear other people's comments
chaals: when ArtB said everything
should be github'ized
... i was heavily opposed to it, i was happy for everyone else
to use it, but not me
... insisting on a tool your editor is not familiar w/ is just
plain dumb
... I think timeless and kaarl identified the problems
... it's good for software
... but tracking comments is dicey
... the tools at this stage aren't a big deal
... teleconfs/stuff not happening is our fault
... crap organization
... SteveZ is right, we often fail to get proposals, if we
don't have proposals, we don't have anything to talk
about
... if we do have a proposal, that's what makes email
discussions more manageable
... people can live with it, can't live with it, can live w/ it
with changes, don't care, ...
... if people don't care/can't live, then you can work on a new
proposal
... i don't see a need for frequent teleconfs
... twice yearly at AC meeting, if we had a lot of people
interested, then perhaps there'd be more value in F2F
meetings
... and the process should be changed conservatively, it's an
agreement amongst 400 different actors
<SteveZ> I agree the F2F meetings for the Process are not particularly useful
chaals: in order for them to
engage over many years and individuals, it's important that
they understand it and can read it
... the idea of revising it was to make it easier
... people were saying "the process document says X"
... and Jeff said "oh, really, can you find a pointer?"
... and they look (for something they were quoting for years),
and can't,
... --
... I think an async process would enable people to consider a
proposal
... possibly encourage people to wait a few days
... introducing a bit of a balance between people who are happy
to bang back and forth on psuedo-legal points of language
... and the people who need to take it to their translators and
lawyers and get an opinion
SteveZ: you're agreeing w/
Mike_Champion's point that we can do better; that we don't need
as many phone calls;
... that we can work asynchronously; that we need people to
develop proposals to make that happen (we can do that on
email); we don't need github to do that
chaals: Yes; yes; yes; yes ... yes
Mike_Champion: ... four people talking past eachother is the problem we're trying to solve here
SteveZ: if tag our email w/ the
issue we're talking about, that helps identify the email
stuff
... i'd like to continue using email
... personal preference
... I think we can move the phone calls to 8am (Pacific) on
Wednesday
Mike_Champion: how many people responded to the survey?
SteveZ: the usual six
people
... there were two times where people had hard stops
... the reasons for mon/wed @8am were the fewest "if need
bes"
... does anyone have a mon/wed pref?
Mike_Champion: both are equally inconvenient
chaals: my preference is to not have phone calls unless we need a phone call
Mike_Champion: monthly might be reasonable
SteveZ: we can do it w/ a monthly
phone call to make sure we're moving along
... i can ping people
... if we have the slot available, if we need to, we can use
it
... is there a day of the month?
chaals: 3rd monday i have a
clash
... how about 2nd monday?
SteveZ: does that work for everyone?
timeless: (thinking)
chaals: sure
Mike_Champion: sure
timeless: yes
<SteveZ> RESOLUTION: Monthly phone calls at 8AM Pacific on Second Monday of the Month
SteveZ: i'm going to work through
the issues list for 2016
... i'll use the CfC mechanism for broadening the base when we
have something worth sending to the broader base
chaals: sounds grand to me
RESOLUTION: Monthly phone calls at 8AM Pacific on Second Monday of the Month
chaals: if twice a week there's
an email from you driving consensus/summary of where we're
at
... it becomes clear whether other people are
replying/participating or not
... if no one replies, you can go back to the AB and identify
that no one from them is involved
SteveZ: if you want to get rid of the phone call, you can say "oh, i can do X and draft something for it"
chaals: i'd assert that the phone call hasn't been a hugely effective mechanism either
SteveZ: i agree
chaals: if it doesn't work, go
back to the AB saying we'll fill up your meetings w/ process
until you decide to do the work
... i think that's a reasonably clear and reasonable
process
... that enables Wayne and others to participate as
equals
... and Dave Singer
SteveZ: at 8, he's at least on a
bus (instead of catching it)
... i don't have any more business for the call
timeless: do i need to minute my comments about github?
chaals: i can +1 your comments
Mike_Champion: if w3c goes down the tube, everyone's using github...
chaals: the cool kids do not work
on organizational process
... the lack of participation is not because we're the wrong
tool
... it's because it's uninteresting
... the people for whom it's interesting find html radical and
new
Mike_Champion: doesn't the existing system have issues?
chaals: it does, but i don't
think github solves them
... if you want to submit a patch, instead of a PR, you send an
edited portion of the document
SteveZ: i was reading "how to
think about github"
... "back in history, you used to do, do the stuff, put it
together, send a change patch"
... if you haven't got a lot of them and aren't doing it
frequently, that's not a bad process
chaals: if you trust the editor
to use a consistent wording style
... then you can propose a thought, and the editor can propose
a change
timeless: conversely if the editor can't use a consistent wording style, then you end up w/ a long sequence of changes
chaals: Mike_Champion, if you
want to be the editor, i'm not attached to being the
editor
... if you want to be editor, anyone is welcome to do that
Mike_Champion: i'm sympathetic w/
that
... and i'm not prepared to take that on
... resolution is to try to work in email in a more disciplined
and productive way, that's fine
... i think it falls on the chair (SteveZ) to tell people to
change the subject line
... bikeshedding/tangents w/o is problematic
... the worst offenders are chaals and I
<SteveZ> RESOLUTION: We will continue to use e-mail for disccusion with an emphasis on (a) having discussions proceed with a suggested change, (b) using issue numbers in the subject line and (c) having the chair ask people to follow the e-mail protocol
chaals: works for me
Mike_Champion: thanks, that's great
timeless: sure
RESOLUTION: We will continue to use e-mail for disccusion with an emphasis on (a) having discussions proceed with a suggested change, (b) using issue numbers in the subject line and (c) having the chair ask people to follow the e-mail protocol
Mike_Champion: where are we on Process 2015?
SteveZ: there's a meeting on July
13
... TimBL will talk individually w/ the four formal
objectors
chaals: we're waiting for TimBL
to make a decision
... it appears he won't make a decision in the next two
weeks
Mike_Champion: the value of this decision model is that at the end of the day, TimBL makes a decision
[ None ]
SteveZ: thanks timeless
chaals: thanks timeless
[ Adjourned ]
trackbot, end meeting
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140 of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/8AM/8AM Pacific/ Succeeded: s/Mike_Champion: hire DKA and change your position?// Succeeded: s/... we expect a formal update from TimBL, but that's only in the process document, and not the process// Succeeded: i/we need phone calls/topic: Discuss new Telcon Time Succeeded: i/minute my comments/topic: Discuss use of GitHub Found Scribe: timeless Inferring ScribeNick: timeless Present: Mike_Champion SteveZ timeless chaals Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/2015Jun/0041.html Found Date: 30 Jun 2015 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/06/30-w3process-minutes.html People with action items:[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]