13:54:21 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #w3process
13:54:21 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/30-w3process-irc
13:54:23 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:54:23 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #w3process
13:54:25 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be Process
13:54:25 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see AB_(PROCESS)10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
13:54:26 <trackbot> Meeting: Revising W3C Process Community Group Teleconference
13:54:26 <trackbot> Date: 30 June 2015
14:00:00 <SteveZ> chair: SteveZ
14:01:45 <timeless> scribe: timeless
14:05:27 <timeless> present+ Mike_Champion
14:05:33 <timeless> present+ SteveZ
14:05:35 <timeless> present+ timeless
14:10:09 <timeless> present+ chaals
14:11:17 <timeless> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/2015Jun/0041.html
14:11:24 <chaals> q+
14:11:43 <timeless> topic: Managing feedback
14:11:56 <timeless> [ Scribe is working on thinking about how to take notes ]
14:12:03 <jeff> jeff has joined #w3process
14:12:15 <timeless> [ we'll get back to this later ]
14:12:30 <timeless> SteveZ: i think we need phone calls for planning purposes if nothing else, they don't have to last an hour
14:12:53 <timeless> ... w/ the exception of David Singer, it looks like Wednesday at 8am (pacific) would be better
14:13:04 <timeless> ... i think there's a need for the telephone conference
14:13:22 <timeless> ... i've seen email discussions go on forever (and i'm guessing the same thing happens in github)
14:13:44 <timeless> ... i think we do more or less Asynchronous decision making, since we have a proposal "can you live with this"
14:13:54 <timeless> ... i'd be happy to hear other people's comments
14:13:55 <timeless> q?
14:14:07 <timeless> ack chaals
14:14:24 <timeless> chaals: when ArtB said everything should be github'ized
14:14:33 <timeless> ... i was heavily opposed to it, i was happy for everyone else to use it, but not me
14:14:46 <timeless> ... insisting on a tool your editor is not familiar w/ is just plain dumb
14:15:21 <timeless> ... I think timeless and kaarl identified the problems
14:15:26 <timeless> ... it's good for software
14:15:34 <timeless> ... but tracking comments is dicey
14:15:42 <timeless> ... the tools at this stage aren't a big deal
14:15:52 <timeless> ... teleconfs/stuff not happening is our fault
14:15:55 <timeless> ... crap organization
14:16:08 <timeless> ... SteveZ is right, we often fail to get proposals, if we don't have proposals, we don't have anything to talk about
14:16:20 <timeless> ... if we do have a proposal, that's what makes email discussions more manageable
14:16:35 <timeless> ... people can live with it, can't live with it, can live w/ it with changes, don't care, ...
14:16:49 <timeless> ... if people don't care/can't live, then you can work on a new proposal
14:16:59 <timeless> ... i don't see a need for frequent teleconfs
14:17:17 <timeless> ... twice yearly at AC meeting, if we had a lot of people interested, then perhaps there'd be more value in F2F meetings
14:17:34 <timeless> ... and the process should be changed conservatively, it's an agreement amongst 400 different actors
14:17:47 <SteveZ> I agree the F2F meetings for the Process are not particularly useful
14:17:50 <timeless> ... in order for them to engage over many years and individuals, it's important that they understand it and can read it
14:18:01 <timeless> ... the idea of revising it was to make it easier
14:18:11 <timeless> ... people were saying "the process document says X"
14:18:21 <timeless> ... and Jeff said "oh, really, can you find a pointer?"
14:18:35 <timeless> ... and they look (for something they were quoting for years), and can't,
14:18:38 <timeless> ... --
14:18:53 <timeless> ... I think an async process would enable people to consider a proposal
14:18:59 <timeless> ... possibly encourage people to wait a few days
14:19:22 <timeless> ... introducing a bit of a balance between people who are happy to bang back and forth on psuedo-legal points of language
14:19:39 <timeless> ... and the people who need to take it to their translators and lawyers and get an opinion
14:20:01 <timeless> SteveZ: you're agreeing w/ Mike_Champion's point that we can do better; that we don't need as many phone calls;
14:21:00 <timeless> ... that we can work asynchronously; that we need people to develop proposals to make that happen (we can do that on email); we don't need github to do that
14:21:09 <timeless> chaals: Yes; yes; yes; yes ... yes
14:21:42 <timeless> Mike_Champion: ... four people talking past eachother is the problem we're trying to solve here
14:21:58 <timeless> SteveZ: if tag our email w/ the issue we're talking about, that helps identify the email stuff
14:22:07 <timeless> ... i'd like to continue using email
14:22:30 <timeless> ... personal preference
14:22:51 <timeless> SteveZ: I think we can move the phone calls to 8am (Pacific) on Wednesday
14:23:06 <timeless> Mike_Champion: how many people responded to the survey?
14:23:17 <timeless> SteveZ: the usual six people
14:23:24 <timeless> ... there were two times where people had hard stops
14:23:37 <timeless> ... the reasons for mon/wed @8am were the fewest "if need bes"
14:23:52 <timeless> ... does anyone have a mon/wed pref?
14:23:59 <timeless> Mike_Champion: both are equally inconvenient
14:24:08 <timeless> chaals: my preference is to not have phone calls unless we need a phone call
14:24:17 <timeless> Mike_Champion: monthly might be reasonable
14:24:29 <timeless> SteveZ: we can do it w/ a monthly phone call to make sure we're moving along
14:24:31 <timeless> ... i can ping people
14:24:47 <timeless> ... if we have the slot available, if we need to, we can use it
14:25:04 <timeless> ... is there a day of the month?
14:25:16 <timeless> chaals: 3rd monday i have a clash
14:25:20 <timeless> ... how about 2nd monday?
14:25:32 <timeless> SteveZ: does that work for everyone?
14:25:37 <timeless> timeless: (thinking)
14:25:40 <timeless> chaals: sure
14:25:42 <timeless> Mike_Champion: sure
14:25:48 <timeless> timeless: yes
14:26:06 <SteveZ> RESOLUTION: Monthly phone calls at 8AM on Second Monday of the Month
14:26:18 <timeless> s/8AM/8AM Pacific/
14:26:27 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:26:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/30-w3process-minutes.html timeless
14:26:36 <timeless> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:26:37 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:26:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/30-w3process-minutes.html timeless
14:26:53 <timeless> SteveZ: i'm going to work through the issues list for 2016
14:27:14 <timeless> ... i'll use the CfC mechanism for broadening the base when we have something worth sending to the broader base
14:27:22 <timeless> chaals: sounds grand to me
14:27:30 <timeless> RESOLUTION: Monthly phone calls at 8AM Pacific on Second Monday of the Month
14:27:51 <timeless> chaals: if twice a week there's an email from you driving consensus/summary of where we're at
14:28:04 <timeless> ... it becomes clear whether other people are replying/participating or not
14:28:09 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:28:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/30-w3process-minutes.html timeless
14:28:34 <timeless> ... if no one replies, you can go back to the AB and identify that no one from them is involved
14:29:00 <timeless> SteveZ: if you want to get rid of the phone call, you can say "oh, i can do X and draft something for it"
14:29:12 <timeless> chaals: i'd assert that the phone call hasn't been a hugely effective mechanism either
14:29:17 <timeless> SteveZ: i agree
14:29:49 <timeless> chaals: if it doesn't work, go back to the AB saying we'll fill up your meetings w/ process until you decide to do the work
14:29:58 <timeless> ... i think that's a reasonably clear and reasonable process
14:30:07 <timeless> ... that enables Wayne and others to participate as equals
14:30:21 <timeless> ... and Dave Singer
14:30:34 <timeless> SteveZ: at 8, he's at least on a bus (instead of catching it)
14:30:56 <timeless> ... i don't have any more business for the call
14:32:00 <timeless> timeless: do i need to minute my comments about github?
14:32:12 <timeless> chaals: i can +1 your comments
14:32:30 <timeless> Mike_Champion: if w3c goes down the tube, everyone's using github...
14:32:38 <timeless> chaals: the cool kids do not work on organizational process
14:32:50 <timeless> ... the lack of participation is not because we're the wrong tool
14:32:57 <timeless> ... it's because it's uninteresting
14:33:09 <timeless> ... the people for whom it's interesting find html radical and new
14:33:24 <timeless> Mike_Champion: doesn't the existing system have issues?
14:33:36 <timeless> chaals: it does, but i don't think github solves them
14:33:55 <timeless> ... if you want to submit a patch, instead of a PR, you send an edited portion of the document
14:34:06 <timeless> SteveZ: i was reading "how to think about github"
14:34:18 <timeless> ... "back in history, you used to do, do the stuff, put it together, send a change patch"
14:34:32 <timeless> ... if you haven't got a lot of them and aren't doing it frequently, that's not a bad process
14:34:43 <timeless> chaals: if you trust the editor to use a consistent wording style
14:34:44 <timeless> q+
14:34:57 <timeless> ... then you can propose a thought, and the editor can propose a change
14:35:32 <timeless> timeless: conversely if the editor can't use a consistent wording style, then you end up w/ a long sequence of changes
14:35:48 <timeless> chaals: Mike_Champion, if you want to be the editor, i'm not attached to being the editor
14:35:59 <timeless> ... if you want to be editor, anyone is welcome to do that
14:36:09 <timeless> Mike_Champion: i'm sympathetic w/ that
14:36:16 <timeless> ... and i'm not prepared to take that on
14:36:37 <timeless> Mike_Champion: resolution is to try to work in email in a more disciplined and productive way, that's fine
14:36:52 <timeless> ... i think it falls on the chair (SteveZ) to tell people to change the subject line
14:37:03 <timeless> ... bikeshedding/tangents w/o is problematic
14:37:18 <timeless> ... the worst offenders are chaals and I
14:37:25 <timeless> q-
14:39:05 <SteveZ> RESOLUTION: We will continue to use e-mail for disccusion with an emphasis on (a) having discussions proceed with a suggested change, (b) using issue numbers in the subject line and (c) having the chair ask people to follow the e-mail protocol
14:39:27 <timeless> chaals: works for me
14:39:59 <timeless> Mike_Champion: thanks, that's great
14:40:06 <timeless> timeless: sure
14:40:07 <timeless> RESOLUTION: We will continue to use e-mail for disccusion with an emphasis on (a) having discussions proceed with a suggested change, (b) using issue numbers in the subject line and (c) having the chair ask people to follow the e-mail protocol
14:40:26 <timeless> Mike_Champion: where are we on Process 2015?
14:40:32 <timeless> SteveZ: there's a meeting on July 13
14:40:46 <timeless> ... TimBL will talk individually w/ the four formal objectors
14:40:56 <timeless> chaals: we're waiting for TimBL to make a decision
14:41:09 <timeless> ... it appears he won't make a decision in the next two weeks
14:41:33 <timeless> ... we expect a formal update from TimBL, but that's only in the process document, and not the process
14:41:39 <timeless> Mike_Champion: hire DKA and change your position?
14:41:51 <timeless> s/Mike_Champion: hire DKA and change your position?//
14:43:03 <timeless> Mike_Champion: the value of this decision model is that at the end of the day, TimBL makes a decision
14:44:19 <chaals> s/... we expect a formal update from TimBL, but that's only in the process document, and not the process//
14:44:26 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:44:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/30-w3process-minutes.html timeless
14:44:38 <timeless> topic: AOB
14:44:42 <timeless> [ None ]
14:44:55 <timeless> SteveZ: thanks timeless
14:44:58 <timeless> chaals: thanks timeless
14:51:46 <timeless> i/we need phone calls/topic: Discuss new Telcon Time
14:52:45 <timeless> i/minute my comments/topic: Discuss use of GitHub
14:52:52 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:52:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/30-w3process-minutes.html timeless
14:53:15 <timeless> [ Adjourned ]
14:53:21 <timeless> trackbot, end meeting
14:53:21 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
14:53:21 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
14:53:29 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:53:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/30-w3process-minutes.html trackbot
14:53:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
14:53:30 <RRSAgent> I see no action items