Social Interest Group Teleconference

15 Apr 2015

See also: IRC log




<trackbot> Date: 15 April 2015

<AnnB_> hmm .. worried by that Zakim note

<AnnB_> I dialed in, seems normal

I'll dial in in a sec, just persuading my officemates they don't need to talk for the next hour :)

<AnnB_> hehe

<AnnB_> either that, or they have to join the meeting

<Lynn> Ann, sorry, what is the zakim command to id oneself when calling in?

<AnnB> Hi Lynn ... 76244#

Sorry, doing the usual SIP dance

<AnnB> aha

is Zakim not identifying people?

<AnnB> right

<AnnB> dialing back in .. .echo

<AnnB> hmmm

<AnnB> oh no .. "all circuits are busy"

I can hear lots of swooshing

<Arnaud> same here

<Arnaud> very noisy call

<Arnaud> people can mute with 61#

<Arnaud> at the bridge level

<Arnaud> 60# to unmute

<AnnB> guangyuan, are you muted?

<Arnaud> who just muted?

<Arnaud> the echo is gone

<Arnaud> thank you :)

<AnnB> having problems with Zakim .. we'll have to do it manually

<Arnaud> +q

<Arnaud> ack

<AnnB> on the call we have Arnaud, AnnB, Guangyuan, Amy, EdK, Larry, Lynn

can you hear me?

<AnnB> no

<AnnB> aaargh .. darn phones

<Arnaud> 60#?

<AnnB> to unmute

I tried that?


<AnnB> aaargh

oh well

I can type

yes, this time works!

Thanks: )


<AnnB> you can hear us

<AnnB> ok

apparently not

I tried unmute

never mind :)

I can scribe!

since I can hear :)

<scribe> scribenick: rhiaro

Approval of minutes

<AnnB> http://www.w3.org/2015/04/01-socialig-minutes.html

AnnB: We need to approve from April 1st
... any objections?
... Approved.
... Last week we had confusion about time because were going to cancel/hold/move... in any case I dialed in and talked to John Breslin, a new member
... There are minutes from that, but I was just giving him background for the WG and IG to date
... John has been involved in the w3c for a long time, linked data, lecturer at what was previoulsy DERI
... Been renamed Insight Centre for Data Analytics
... Don't know if he is going to participate himself, but his grad student guanyuan is joining us

guanyuan: Hello, I'm a first year phd student under supervision of John Breslin
... Interested in social web and semantic web

AnnB: I believe you're interested in vocabularies?

guanyuan: Yes

<lehawes> Ann: You're echoing again. Badly. :>(

AnnB: Welcome to the group, we've been working to get guanyuan's visa so he can come to f2f in Paris

guanyuan: I think I can meet you there

AnnB: We look forward to meeting you
... Lloyd just joined
... {recaps guangyuan's intro for lloyd}

Lloyd: I'd like to meet him. I saw an email with people's names, do people have preferred linsk for research?

AnnB: Could add links in wiki
... Unfortunately after we'd picked a new time for this meeting, Dan R said this time didn't work for him
... There's no other time on the poll that would work
... He can't make the meeting in Paris
... elf isn't here today. He invited Jason Haag to join too, but he's not here
... The other items on the agenda were from elf
... So I'm not sure what to do about thme
... He has a proposal to change from using tracker to github
... And moving this irc channel to social

<AnnB> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-social-interest/2015Apr/0029.html

AnnB: The reason that we stayed with two irc channels is in order to have trackbot in each channel, to keep action items separate
... Since we can't seem to get trackbot to work, and more people are familiar with github, my interpretation is that is why he suggested this

Arnaud: I understand the problem with the setup, but this is a failure from w3c to provide us with the right setup. This shouldn't cause us to change the way we work. But beyond that, if people want to use github that's fine
... Github will work for issue tracking, but not really for action tracking, will it?

AnnB: I don't know, anyone else?

I don't know off the top of my head about actions

various people: not sure

AnnB: I'm trying to figure out how to use github to contact people and talk about their issues
... I was really hoping elf would be here today
... I guess we'll have to postpone this decision until the next call

<AnnB> https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr/issues

Progress on API user stories with objections

AnnB: We're not making much progress, we need to do more
... Larry and I put stories out there, and with the comments that were any kind of concern or objection, but I'm going to need instruction on how to use github to resolve these issues

<lehawes> Me too, AnnB! I am not a github user either.

I'm not sure, I need to check what's currently going on with the group

I'm not up to speed

<lehawes> I've been trying to reach Kevin Marks by his Gmail account, but getting no response. Would love to know how to reach him via github.

lehawes - get Kevin on IRC

#indiewebcamp on freenode

<lehawes> rhiaro: Thanks, Amy!

AnnB: Don't see that I'm getting notifications with @ on github

@ does work on github

<Lynn> github: yes, can use @name to notify; and people can sign up to watch a repository

it depends if people have email notifications set up though

not everyone does

<lehawes> Is there a tutorial available directly on github?

AnnB, maybe your email notifications arne't on

AnnB: bottom line is, we need to make progress on these stories

AnnB, I'll look at it after the call and email you if I figure anything out!

AnnB: Arnaud, as chair do you have any objections to this group using the social irc channel?

Arnaud: I'm thinking

I notice there's a lot of noise in #social right now

notifications form things

Arnaud: no legal issues
... I don't know that the WG would mind
... For archival purposes, maybe it's not ideal
... Mixing two different flows
... The logger, etc
... it's harder to find things afterwards

AnnB: yeah, I think it's harder

Arnaud: there's some value in separating those threads

I agree ^

Arnaud: hesitant for this, but not objecting

AnnB: I'm not sure I see the benefit

Arnaud: as chair of the IG Ann, i recommend you escalate the issue with the w3c, to get them to sort it out
... if the group still wants to change to use github, but we shouldn't be forced into it

<lehawes> To me, sharing the IRC channel would create better awareness of what each group is doing. Downside is aforementioned clutter.

AnnB: I don't think that's why elf is suggesting this

Arnaud: as far as I know github doens't have an action tracker
... I'd rather we had our own channel with our own tracker
... if we choose to use github for issue tracking as well that's reasonable
... like we do in the wg

AnnB: We pretty much had the channel working until we moved the time
... I'm not sure trackbot was ever working
... I will lean on the systeam to do that
... oh by the way, harry is ill
... I think we're going to have to leave both of the questions, about tracker and irc, until next week
... In the meantime, I'll get hold of w3c systeam to get set up properly
... Any other comments about those two suggestoins?

EdK: I support keeping them separate
... Especially if we're still trying to find a time to that works for everyone
... There's a small chance we'd end up colliding meetings
... Will stay well organised

AnnB: good point
... Any others?

Use cases with minor objections

AnnB: background, the social web wg is developing a social web api, and for that work, came up with 90 user stories
... just describing things like ' a user posts a note and somebody comments on it' and so on
... Everybody voted on them, what was important, what they would implement etc

<AnnB> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories

AnnB: Stories and votes at link
... And then somebody organised the stories with the way they were voted on
... A small number that were entirely positive
... then some that are mostly positive, and so on

<AnnB> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Sorting_user_stories

AnnB: A lot of the objections are really minor
... Just about the wording
... Such as, there's one about posting a comment and embedding some media
... the way it's written said she posts a comment then posts a video under her comment
... many objections were 'we should not specify location of video'
... that's easy, it's just someone wrote it that way.
... Those are the things that the wg is looking to use to figure out
... We just need to go through objections and contact people
... 'is this really a big deal', ask if it's okay to rewrite things slightly
... wg are working hard to try to figure out other things, so this is important work that we can contribute
... also it's in our charter
... so we need to start working on it

<Lynn> thanks this was a helpful explanation !

AnnB: The proposal to do this in github is to take each of these issues, post them in github, and get people to talk about them there
... We need more instruction on how to manage that, but that's the goal
... Any questions?
... or comments?
... Any problems with doing that?
... I'm going to take silence as ACTION
... Anyone who doesn't speak is going to have to do some work! :D

lehawes: the issue with the ability to collaborate has been the biggest holdup
... getting hold of people has been hard
... if we can clear that up, we'll progress

AnnB: one of the things we discovered is that the indieweb people don't respond to email
... varies according to the person
... but for those of us who work with email it's a barrier
... as we've seen, most of us on this call are new people to github, so similarly a barrier
... we're trying to learn, but it's slwoed things down
... we need to figure out the best way to collaborate
... Any other comments about working on the user stories?

Vocabulary TF

AnnB: An issue from elf


<trackbot> issue-4 -- management of 'living' vocabularies similar to microformats.org and schema.org -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Social/InterestGroup/track/issues/4

<AnnB> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialig/Vocabulary_TF#Mapping_API_User_Stories_to_Vocabulary_terms

scribe: Mapping user stories to vocabulary terms
... Lloyd?
... Anyone?

Lloyd: I'm not up to speed
... My main observation about vocabularies-stories is seeing a disconnect between actual domain vocabularies vs basic vocabularies
... so as we're going through the 90 stories, at least for people who are interested in vocabularies, could use more definition in the feedback process
... social is general, that's fine for things like tagging a photo, but isn't going to enable collaboration for businesses to work on

AnnB: can you give example of vocab for businesses that is lacking?

Lloyd: I only preferred one story, the asparagus one
... it's a marketplace, where a farmer wanted to sell asapragus
... buyers, sellers, thing being sold
... required a domain vocabulary
... you need to do that with any domain
... we're intuitively taking small steps, doing things like facebook instead of collaboration platform
... I think the small steps can lead to something bigger
... I'm just trying to stay focused on the fact tat bringing in a domain vocabulary is a significant piece
... rather than just waving hands around it, we need to documen tit

AnnB: I agree, important point. I am sympathetic to wg, trying to define first step
... trying to keep it manageable
... probably better to get v1 out, and then grow
... but I don't want to lose visibility or the concept of the larger potential

Lloyd: also the IG is playing a role in technology development that we're trying to really address the need with use cases, where the wg is more technical
... it's our role to not just launch something that's cool, but is very usefl
... in particular, the useful and in demand thing is a less expensive way to coordinate resources
... last year, I'd created types of use cases paper
... I've been trying to break down the 90 stories into types
... I think the marketplace doesn't have a lot of quantity, but has a lot of quality
... I'ts not the be-all-end-all if domain specific vocabularies have to wait
... but it's good if it can be addressed in the edits of the stories

Lynn: my partner bob submitted that story
... we're trying to work on a vocabulary in that whole area
... It seems really out of scope for this group
... I've not been sure how to fit that in

Lloyd: I think it's out of scope because of momentum around SWAT0, created by people who are technologists
... I exchanged some emails about asparagus user story, really fascinating
... We have to stand up and make the case about what's important

AnnB: I can easily see asparagus story extrapolated to boeing vocabularies, such as want to sell a plane

EdK: So I have been thinking about vocabulary in the further future
... I've been trying to work offline to think about federation
... How vocabularies work in a decentralised social world
... But since we haven't defined it yet, harder to get mind around
... Yesterday, sat in on a webinar about knowledge management
... Important is visualisation capabilities
... An example, a map of the world that facebook did by creating a map of people and through friend relationships and locations, simply plotted that
... and it drew a complete picture of the world
... and it dawned on me that from a single instance social environment, especially in a business sense, things that we would need to be able to focus on, core relationships, but with a business lens
... if I want to see how things are laid out in my network, what would those things be and how would I use a common vocabulary to do that
... can't use a folksonomy, can't use NLP
... that's where the importance of single-instance vocabulary would have to lie
... If you look at new visualisation software ,that could help trigger what you want to focus on
... customer buying, selling

AnnB: lloyd has recruiting, skills, hiring

EdK: I'm not an ontology expert so I wouldn't know how to organise that, but that mental model helped me think about what single instance would be beneficial in a business sense
... What are the key things that I would want to visualise?
... The idea of looking at the words used to construct the usecases
... look at the most likely key words
... maybe make them bold
... then maybe italicise synonyms
... put in emerging vocabulary words that would be equivalent
... tying it back to user stories

AnnB: maybe you could copy a story to another wiki page and do a prototype

Okay if I type?

You can read for lloyd

I just wanted to mention that the vocab being developed in the wg is for barebones core social interactions

and there's an extension mechanism for more domain specific ones

so specific domains can define what they need, and tie in

so things like marketplace, recruiting, etc

would not be done in the WG, but it would be possible for anyone to create their own, and still interop with the core

How the extension mechanism works is still under discussion

Does that help?

<lehawes> That seems like a prudent architecture, Amy.

AnnB: questions?

Lynn: when you say it would be possible for anyone to create thier own,what does that mean? can many people still use it?

It could work either way

There are already many public vocabs that anyone can use

They are published in a certain way, with discoverable documentaiton

AnnB: that's notes from earlier
... by the way, John Breslin and guangyuan are working on vocabularies for social semantic interaction, and John wrote SIOC
... which is semantically interlinked online communities

<lehawes> Yes, there are many industry (domain) specific vocabularies in existence and use. Would be silly to try to recreate those when they could merely be plugged in to the social web architecture, as needed.

lehawes: I tink we raised this when IG was started. Trying to get a handle on what vocab TF would be doing
... trying to recreate industry/domain vocabs would be wasted effort
... good to plug them in on as-needed basis
... Originally vocab TF would be identifying these, and making a list

AnnB: elf has called this out earlier

<AnnB> Issue 4: https://www.w3.org/Social/InterestGroup/track/issues/4 : management of 'living' vocabularies similar to microformats.org and schema.org

AnnB: If you look at vocab TF wiki page, there are references to oter specific domains
... Also raised for discussion today this issue to do with management of living vocabularies
... I can't speak to this, but it's another vocab management question
... Does anyone have new business? Anything for next week's agenda?
... I think we need to work out how collaborate
... I will make a point to get hold of systeam
... Beyond that?
... Anyone??

<lehawes> Inter-group collaboration is the key issue to address, IMO. Other agenda items can't advance well until we solve that.

Lynn: Question, I'm wondering if it makes any sense, from watching emails, should we put some issues from tracker on the agenda?

AnnB: The working group spends a lot of time going through issues like this
... I'm not sure which are ours, I'll make an effort to figure that out

Arnaud: That's a good proposal, but the best way to proceed on closing issues is when people do some prep work and come up with a proposed resolution
... Then we can debate that
... From that point of view, it would help the chair set up the agenda if people in the IG look at the issues, choose the ones they care about, initate a conversation to start making a proposal for resolution for an issue
... The chair can monitor the issue. People can make proposals, and put them on the agenda

AnnB: Thanks
... Any other suggestions?

<lehawes> I need to join another meeting. Thanks AnnB and everyone else!

AnnB: In that case we'll end unless any last comments
... or good jokes? :D

no problem

scribe: Everyone go look at user stories!

<AnnB> trackbot, end meeting

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.140 (CVS log)
$Date: 2015/04/15 16:02:05 $

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

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This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140  of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30  
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/that/asparagus user story/
Found ScribeNick: rhiaro
Inferring Scribes: rhiaro

WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: Ann AnnB AnnB_ Arnaud EdK Lloyd Loqi Lynn aaronpk bret github guangyuan guanyuan https joined lehawes oshepherd peacekeeper pfefferle rhiaro scribenick socialig trackbot
You can indicate people for the Present list like this:
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        <dbooth> Present+ amy

WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Found Date: 15 Apr 2015
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/04/15-socialig-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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