<janina> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Date: 19 February 2015

<trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 19 February 2015

<richardschwerdtfeger> Meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus

<richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Feb/0039.html

https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html

<fesch> zakim fesch is aabb

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-listitem

<asurkov> I’m on the call but I don’t know phone identification

<scribe> scribeNick: jamesn

can you please add the agenda link

<clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Feb/0039.html

ACTION-1395?

<trackbot> ACTION-1395 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add table role to taxonomy and aria 1.1 spec. -- due 2015-02-12 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1395

and

ACTION-1293?

<trackbot> ACTION-1293 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Add aria-colindex to role gridcell and aria-rowindex to role row -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1293

rs: Joanie was going to create a trunk for that

jmd: not done yet

ACTION-1581?

<trackbot> ACTION-1581 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Create a proposal for a panel role and modify the group role to be more generic -- due 2015-02-26 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1581

jmd: canvas deadlines again prevented that
... did you have a plan to mail the list about plans for rowindex and colindex?

rs: don't recall an action for that

ACTION-1293?

<trackbot> ACTION-1293 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Add aria-colindex to role gridcell and aria-rowindex to role row -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1293

jmd: this action is now assigned to rs

ACTION-1362?

<trackbot> ACTION-1362 -- James Craig to Patch issue-640: aria-hasmanagedfocus -- due 2015-01-29 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1362

mk: I think we don't even want this attribute until we have the thing which comes along with it like control patterns
... until we can extend roles and specify control patterns then AT can have some way of knowing that there is some specified way to interct with things
... don't like it at all

rs: wondering if we could at least apply it to something like a list.

mk: for that i think we need to have a role which maps to an a11y API
... a list view which is different from a select
... can you say what you are referring to

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-tree ?

mk: it is actually the same role which they use

jmd: we have tree and treetable

mk: the same one that is used in windows explorer
... for the list of files in your file system
... not sure if there is a need to distinguish between a listview and a treeview

rs: the point you are making is that you don't know how to interact with it just by saying it is interactive

mk: the AT can't really tell you what the role is. If it is a static role that doesn't mean anything in terms of interactivity

<clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#group

problem is that have widgets which we need to support which do not have roles available. currently have to have role=application with a role=group inside. aria-activedescendent is used inside. Problem is we can't put it on aplpication

rs: help can certainly help here

mk: in fred's case normally even for a graph when you put the focus on the highlighted item. Your choices are tabindex or activedescendaent. That element has to have a role.

fe: everything had to have to show highlights.... when we do chart navigation you tell the item you are selected and to highlight.....

mk: how does a screen reader pick that up

fe: we build a shadow DOM. The graphics don't always contain the information. If you have colour and shape the info you get when you hit a shape is other info

mk: you have to give things focus. You use widget roles like

fe: while a sighted user can pick out the informtion. Giving someone a circle doesn't do much good if you don't tell someone what the values are
... we do a lot of things which aren't the same for blind users

jn: we don't want different renderers for different user types

rs: can't wait 3 years for interactive charts
... think we need something. help info is the way to do this in the short term

mk: better way is defined control patterns

rs: think we need something now to provide a user information that something is interactive and there is the ability to provide information as to how to use something

mk: haven't heard anything that says we don't have what we need

rs: I don't want role=applciation either

mk: you still need some widget role in there
... we have a way to get all the events. One thing could do is make application not a landmark - could make it like group.
... no need for the application landmark. only thing it does is suck up the screen reader keys

<clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#application

rs: if you land on something that is an application it doesn't sound like a widget

cs: used by the screen reader to swicth into forms mode

mk: could make the widget role concrete. If made application just a container and not a landmark then the effect is it just allows keys to pass through
... i don't see the value today of application being a subclass of landmark

jn: i think an attribute is clearer.

rs: I think this is important for graphics

mk: i would make a proposal that only allow it on the group role and no other - if that is what group does

jn: what about image

rs: what does the SVG element map to

<richardschwerdtfeger> ‘svg’ group role no restrictions

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-img

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-canvas

rs: i think allowing it on a group role or and image then can do this.
... that would restrict it

mk: what would the expected result be for a screen reader user

jn: author is responsible for documenting the keyboard method of using things

mk: hard to imagine the screen readers handling this very well

rs: will have roles like that in svg and will be able to apply them to html too

<clown> issue-636?

<trackbot> issue-636 -- Continue discussion of localized role "name" (or custom role "descriptions" on known role types) -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/636

fe: when a screen reader is runnign - even if you have a chart chich is a widget. Some of the keys don't get down to the widget as they are consumed by the browser.

mk: the screen reader would never hear interactive group
... the thing inside would have a label

fe: then when you start taking keyboard control then you have an apparent focus which you see in the screen reader

mk: the apparent focus from a screen reader perspective is the actual focus

fe: the screen reader focus is wherever in the shadow dom we move you but the browser focus is on the main element

mk: the screen reader needs to know something about where focus is. In the case of your shadow dom it is wherever in the shadow dom the focus is

there is a dom focus. You don't need role description - if you have a span inside the grup then whatever you label that span

mk: then if you solve that problem if you label the span image then if the screen reader is in forms mode then it will just think the image had focus

<richardschwerdtfeger> These are the SVG role mappiings: https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/struct.html#implicit-aria-semantics

mk: so we are just using the group as a wrapper as a generic application for all practical purposes

rs: will be interesting for graphics as nobody has defined standard intercation patterns for charts

fe: National center for accessible media has suggested interactions for charts

<richardschwerdtfeger> http://ncam.wgbh.org/experience_learn/educational_media/stemdx/exa

<richardschwerdtfeger> http://ncam.wgbh.org/experience_learn/educational_media/stemdx

rs: matt can you live with group or image

<clown> action-1548

<trackbot> action-1548 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Write revised proposal for aria-current based on today’s meeting for issue 587 -- due 2015-01-29 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1548

ACTION-1349?

<trackbot> ACTION-1349 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Patch issue-561: we need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1349

rs: assume you haven't got to it yet.

jmd: haven't touched it in weeks. Posted something a month ago. There was dicsussion but no conclusion.
... I wrote proposed text and sent it and there was discussion

rs: add a draft in the spec and add the comments so we can discuss on a call

<richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Feb/0076.html

mk: can we use should in the normal english way

jn: could have multiple currents in (for example) an IDE

clown: long ago we came up with "is recommended"

mk: is it allowed to use should in any other way in the documented

clown: it is recommended not to use should except in normative ways

mk: was thinking of these as notes
... agree that the first note should be written into text as a should

rs: the 2nd i don't think needs to be a note

clown: I think the first is a must but...

jn: don't we not have author musts anyway

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-describedat

<clown> describedat has an author MUST

mk: can't have it in test tools as we don't know what the scope is
... i think authors should is strong enough

clown: I can barely live with it

open actions and issues

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17

mc: work on the test harness hasn't been top of my list
... 1 reason got fouled up is the security was tightened and took down some parts without telling me
... there is now labs.w3.org and can either provide a VM for us there
... should pursue that option.
... do we want to put the harness code in github. Think it is a reqlly sepcific thing and wont be a lot of general interest in it.

jg: will it be possible to do testing of html5 features with a different branch.

mc: the harness was set up for that. There are automated html things in testthe web forward suite

jg: is there a link for test the web forward

<MichaelC> http://testthewebforward.org/

mc: lower on their list for accessibility testing
... won't hit their list for some years

rs: some meetings after csun?

mc: maybe 1 or 2 special meetings

jg: have people to do testing once we have a harness

<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: cooper Host test harness meeting for ARIA 1.1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-aria-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1587 - Host test harness meeting for aria 1.1 [on Michael Cooper - due 2015-02-26].

ACTION-1073?

<trackbot> ACTION-1073 -- Matthew King to Update aria-selected to reflect that it communicates selectability and clarify responsibility for ensuring aria-selected=false is on selectable elements -- due 2014-11-18 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1073

mk: target end of march

ACTION-1361?

<trackbot> ACTION-1361 -- James Nurthen to Suggest new text for the application role -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1361

<clown> action-1363

<trackbot> action-1363 -- James Craig to Patch issue-603: aria-startsmedia -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1363

a note to make it modality specific

mk: part of me is wondering would the screen reader want to know does the media start playing and the author believes that the author's intent

jn: can we wait until jc is here to discuss

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/gd/jg/
Found ScribeNick: jamesn
Inferring Scribes: jamesn
Default Present: janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, +1.719.339.aaaa, Joanmarie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Jon_Gunderson, +1.703.978.aabb
Present: janina Rich_Schwerdtfeger +1.719.339.aaaa Joanmarie_Diggs James_Nurthen Joseph_Scheuhammer Jon_Gunderson +1.703.978.aabb Michael_Cooper Fred_Esch Matt_King Alexander_Surkov Cynthia_Shelly
Found Date: 19 Feb 2015
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-aria-minutes.html
People with action items: cooper

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