17:28:24 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:28:24 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-aria-irc
17:28:26 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
17:28:26 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
17:28:27 <janina> trackbot, start meeting
17:28:28 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
17:28:28 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WAI_PFWG()12:30PM already started
17:28:29 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
17:28:29 <trackbot> Date: 19 February 2015
17:28:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
17:28:33 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
17:28:33 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WAI_PFWG()12:30PM already started
17:28:34 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
17:28:34 <trackbot> Date: 19 February 2015
17:28:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
17:28:40 <janina> zakim, who's here?
17:28:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P4
17:28:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfeger, jamesn, asurkov, LJWatson, newtron, MarkS, janina, joanie, ed, trackbot
17:28:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> Meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
17:28:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
17:28:55 <janina> zakim, ??P4 is me
17:28:56 <Zakim> +janina; got it
17:29:35 <janina> zakim, who's here?
17:29:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see janina
17:29:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfeger, jamesn, asurkov, LJWatson, newtron, MarkS, janina, joanie, ed, trackbot
17:30:13 <clown> clown has joined #aria
17:30:15 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:30:38 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
17:30:58 <Zakim> + +1.719.339.aaaa
17:31:43 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
17:32:03 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
17:32:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Feb/0039.html
17:32:47 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
17:32:56 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:32:57 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
17:33:06 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:33:06 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:33:07 <jamesn> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html
17:33:38 <fesch> fesch has joined #aria
17:33:43 <Zakim> - +1.719.339.aaaa
17:33:51 <Zakim> +Jon_Gunderson
17:33:54 <Zakim> + +1.703.978.aabb
17:34:04 <Zakim> +??P9
17:34:16 <fesch> zakim fesch is aabb
17:34:22 <janina> zakim, who's here?
17:34:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joanmarie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Jon_Gunderson, +1.703.978.aabb, ??P9
17:34:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see fesch, jongund, clown, Zakim, RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfeger, jamesn, asurkov, LJWatson, newtron, MarkS, janina, joanie, ed, trackbot
17:34:29 <Zakim> + +1.719.339.aacc
17:35:08 <fesch> zakim, I am aaaa
17:35:08 <Zakim> sorry, fesch, I do not see a party named 'aaaa'
17:35:52 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-listitem
17:36:14 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #aria
17:36:53 <Zakim> +??P17
17:37:22 <MichaelC> ack me
17:38:22 <MichaelC> zakim, aabb is Fred_Esch
17:38:22 <Zakim> +Fred_Esch; got it
17:38:39 <MichaelC> zakim, aacc is Matt_King
17:38:39 <Zakim> +Matt_King; got it
17:39:00 <asurkov> I’m on the call but I don’t know phone identification
17:39:06 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P9 is Alexander_Surkov
17:39:06 <Zakim> +Alexander_Surkov; got it
17:40:08 <jamesn> scribeNick: jamesn
17:40:16 <jamesn> agenda?
17:40:35 <jamesn> can you please add the agenda link
17:40:45 <clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Feb/0039.html
17:41:18 <jamesn> ACTION-1395?
17:41:18 <trackbot> ACTION-1395 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add table role to taxonomy and aria 1.1 spec. -- due 2015-02-12 -- OPEN
17:41:18 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1395
17:41:25 <jamesn> and
17:41:30 <jamesn> ACTION-1293?
17:41:30 <trackbot> ACTION-1293 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Add aria-colindex to role gridcell and aria-rowindex to role row -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
17:41:30 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1293
17:41:37 <Zakim> + +1.650.738.aadd
17:41:47 <jamesn> rs: Joanie was going to create a trunk for that
17:41:56 <jamesn> jmd: not done yet
17:42:05 <jamesn> ACTION-1581?
17:42:06 <trackbot> ACTION-1581 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Create a proposal for a panel role and modify the group role to be more generic -- due 2015-02-26 -- OPEN
17:42:06 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1581
17:42:18 <jamesn> jmd: canvas deadlines again prevented that
17:43:02 <jamesn> jmd: did you have a plan to mail the list about plans for rowindex and colindex?
17:43:05 <jamesn> rs: don't recall an action for that
17:43:10 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
17:43:12 <jamesn> ACTION-1293?
17:43:12 <trackbot> ACTION-1293 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Add aria-colindex to role gridcell and aria-rowindex to role row -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
17:43:12 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1293
17:43:36 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
17:43:36 <Zakim> sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not see a party named 'Bryan_Garaventa'
17:43:50 <jamesn> jmd: this action is now assigned to rs
17:44:07 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, aaaa is Bryan_Garaventa
17:44:07 <Zakim> sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
17:44:08 <jamesn> ACTION-1362?
17:44:08 <trackbot> ACTION-1362 -- James Craig to Patch issue-640: aria-hasmanagedfocus -- due 2015-01-29 -- OPEN
17:44:08 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1362
17:45:31 <jamesn> mk: I think we don't even want this attribute until we have the thing which comes along with it like control patterns
17:46:05 <jamesn> mk: until we can extend roles and specify control patterns then AT can have some way of knowing that there is some specified way to interct with things
17:46:13 <jamesn> mk: don't like it at all
17:46:28 <jamesn> rs: wondering if we could at least apply it to something like a list.
17:46:44 <jamesn> mk: for that i think we need to have a role which maps to an a11y API
17:47:02 <jamesn> mk: a list view which is different from a select
17:47:11 <jamesn> mk: can you say what you are referring to
17:47:21 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-tree ?
17:47:31 <jamesn> mk: it is actually the same role which they use
17:47:33 <jamesn> q+
17:47:42 <jamesn> jmd: we have tree and treetable
17:47:56 <jamesn> mk: the same one that is used in windows explorer
17:48:11 <jamesn> mk: for the list of files in your file system
17:48:35 <jamesn> mk: not sure if there is a need to distinguish between a listview and a treeview
17:49:54 <fesch> q+
17:51:27 <jamesn> rs: the point you are making is that you don't know how to interact with it just by saying it is interactive
17:52:03 <jamesn> mk: the AT can't really tell you what the role is. If it is a static role that doesn't mean anything in terms of interactivity
17:52:51 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:53:23 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
17:53:36 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:53:36 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
17:53:43 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:53:43 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:54:30 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#group
17:58:38 <jamesn> problem is that have widgets which we need to support which do not have roles available. currently have to have role=application with a role=group inside. aria-activedescendent is used inside. Problem is we can't put it on aplpication
17:59:02 <jamesn> rs: help can certainly help here
17:59:52 <jamesn> mk: in fred's case normally even for a graph when you put the focus on the highlighted item. Your choices are tabindex or activedescendaent. That element has to have a role.
18:00:27 <jamesn> fe: everything had to have to show highlights.... when we do chart navigation you tell the item you are selected and to highlight.....
18:00:35 <jamesn> mk: how does a screen reader pick that up
18:01:18 <jamesn> fe: we build a shadow DOM. The graphics don't always contain the information. If you have colour and shape the info you get when you hit a shape is other info
18:01:19 <Zakim> + +1.512.445.aaee
18:01:33 <Susann_Keohane> Susann_Keohane has joined #aria
18:02:15 <jamesn> mk: you have to give things focus. You use widget roles like
18:02:52 <jamesn> fe: while a sighted user can pick out the informtion. Giving someone a circle doesn't do much good if you don't tell someone what the values are
18:04:09 <jamesn> fe: we do a lot of things which aren't the same for blind users
18:04:23 <jamesn> jn: we don't want different renderers for different user types
18:04:35 <jamesn> rs: can't wait 3 years for interactive charts
18:05:02 <jamesn> rs: think we need something. help info is the way to do this in the short term
18:05:06 <jamesn> mk: better way is defined control patterns
18:05:39 <jamesn> rs: think we need something now to provide a user information that something is interactive and there is the ability to provide information as to how to use something
18:05:59 <jamesn> mk: haven't heard anything that says we don't have what we need
18:06:07 <jamesn> rs: I don't want role=applciation either
18:06:18 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
18:06:19 <jamesn> mk: you still need some widget role in there
18:07:37 <jamesn> mk: we have a way to get all the events. One thing could do is make application not a landmark - could make it like group.
18:07:57 <jamesn> mk: no need for the application landmark. only thing it does is suck up the screen reader keys
18:08:04 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#application
18:08:06 <jamesn> q+
18:08:13 <fesch> ack me
18:08:33 <jamesn> rs: if you land on something that is an application it doesn't sound like a widget
18:08:47 <jamesn> cs: used by the screen reader to swicth into forms mode
18:09:57 <jamesn> mk: could make the widget role concrete. If made application just a container and not a landmark then the effect is it just allows keys to pass through
18:10:18 <jamesn> mk: i don't see the value today of application being a subclass of landmark
18:10:36 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
18:11:02 <jamesn> jn: i think an attribute is clearer.
18:11:05 <jamesn> rs: I think this is important for graphics
18:12:40 <jamesn> mk: i would make a proposal that only allow it on the group role and no other - if that is what group does
18:12:44 <jamesn> jn: what about image
18:13:02 <jamesn> rs: what does the SVG element map to
18:13:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> ‘svg’ 	group role 	no restrictions
18:14:09 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-img
18:14:43 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-canvas
18:15:02 <jamesn> rs: i think allowing it on a group role or and image then can do this.
18:15:11 <jamesn> rs: that would restrict it
18:15:45 <jamesn> mk: what would the expected result be for a screen reader user
18:17:10 <jamesn> jn: author is responsible for documenting the keyboard method of using things
18:17:26 <jamesn> mk: hard to imagine the screen readers handling this very well
18:17:43 <jamesn> rs: will have roles like that in svg and will be able to apply them to html too
18:18:11 <clown> issue-636?
18:18:11 <trackbot> issue-636 -- Continue discussion of localized role "name" (or custom role "descriptions" on known role types) -- open
18:18:11 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/636
18:18:21 <jamesn> fe: when a screen reader is runnign - even if you have a chart chich is a widget. Some of the keys don't get down to the widget as they are consumed by the browser.
18:18:53 <jamesn> mk: the screen reader would never hear interactive group
18:19:04 <jamesn> mk: the thing inside would have a label
18:19:30 <jamesn> fe: then when you start taking keyboard control then you have an apparent focus which you see in the screen reader
18:19:50 <jamesn> mk: the apparent focus from a screen reader perspective is the actual focus
18:20:17 <jamesn> fe: the screen reader focus is wherever in the shadow dom we move you but the browser focus is on the main element
18:21:02 <jamesn> mk: the screen reader needs to know something about where focus is. In the case of your shadow dom it is wherever in the shadow dom the focus is
18:21:26 <jamesn> there is a dom focus. You don't need role description - if you have a span inside the grup then whatever you label that span
18:22:00 <jamesn> mk: then if you solve that problem if you label the span image then if the screen reader is in forms mode then it will just think the image had focus
18:22:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> These are the SVG role mappiings: https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/struct.html#implicit-aria-semantics
18:22:31 <jamesn> mk: so we are just using the group as a wrapper as a generic application for all practical purposes
18:23:24 <jamesn> rs: will be interesting for graphics as nobody has defined standard intercation patterns for charts
18:23:52 <jamesn> fe: National center for accessible media has suggested interactions for charts
18:24:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://ncam.wgbh.org/experience_learn/educational_media/stemdx/exa
18:24:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://ncam.wgbh.org/experience_learn/educational_media/stemdx
18:26:18 <jamesn> rs: matt can you live with group or image
18:29:07 <clown> action-1548
18:29:07 <trackbot> action-1548 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Write revised proposal for aria-current based on today’s meeting for issue 587 -- due 2015-01-29 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:29:07 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1548
18:29:40 <jamesn> ACTION-1349?
18:29:40 <trackbot> ACTION-1349 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Patch issue-561: we need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
18:29:40 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1349
18:29:58 <jamesn> rs: assume you haven't got to it yet.
18:30:21 <jamesn> jmd: haven't touched it in weeks. Posted something a month ago. There was dicsussion but no conclusion.
18:30:43 <jamesn> jmd: I wrote proposed text and sent it and there was discussion
18:31:02 <jamesn> rs: add a draft in the spec and add the comments so we can discuss on a call
18:32:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Feb/0076.html
18:34:31 <jamesn> mk: can we use should in the normal english way
18:36:22 <jamesn> jn: could have multiple currents in (for example) an IDE
18:37:02 <jamesn> clown: long ago we came up with "is recommended"
18:37:23 <jamesn> mk: is it allowed to use should in any other way in the documented
18:37:42 <jamesn> clown: it is recommended not to use should except in normative ways
18:37:56 <jamesn> mk: was thinking of these as notes
18:38:15 <jamesn> mk: agree that the first note should be written into text as a should
18:38:37 <jamesn> rs: the 2nd i don't think needs to be a note
18:39:27 <jamesn>  clown: I think the first is a must but...
18:39:56 <jamesn> jn: don't we not have author musts anyway
18:40:13 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-describedat
18:40:24 <clown> describedat has an author MUST
18:41:22 <jamesn> mk: can't have it in test tools as we don't know what the scope is
18:41:34 <jamesn> mk: i think authors should is strong enough
18:41:44 <jamesn> clown: I can barely live with it
18:43:38 <jamesn> TOPIC: open actions and issues
18:43:50 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17
18:43:53 <MichaelC> ack me
18:43:58 <MichaelC> q+
18:44:05 <jamesn> ack me
18:44:53 <jamesn> mc: work on the test harness hasn't been top of my list
18:45:16 <jamesn> mc: 1 reason got fouled up is the security was tightened and took down some parts without telling me
18:45:36 <jamesn> mc: there is now labs.w3.org and can either provide a VM for us there
18:45:45 <jamesn> mc: should pursue that option.
18:46:16 <jamesn> mc: do we want to put the harness code in github. Think it is a reqlly sepcific thing and wont be a lot of general interest in it.
18:46:35 <jamesn> jg: will it be possible to do testing of html5 features with a different branch.
18:47:02 <jamesn> mc: the harness was set up for that. There are automated html things in testthe web forward suite
18:47:10 <jamesn> gd: is there a link for test the web forward
18:47:16 <MichaelC> http://testthewebforward.org/
18:47:21 <jamesn> s/gd/jg/
18:47:39 <jamesn> mc: lower on their list for accessibility testing
18:47:49 <jamesn> mc: won't hit their list for some years
18:48:39 <jamesn> rs: some meetings after csun?
18:48:47 <jamesn> mc: maybe 1 or 2 special meetings
18:49:02 <jamesn> jg: have people to do testing once we have a harness
18:49:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: cooper Host test harness meeting for ARIA 1.1
18:49:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1587 - Host test harness meeting for aria 1.1 [on Michael Cooper - due 2015-02-26].
18:51:11 <jamesn> ACTION-1073?
18:51:11 <trackbot> ACTION-1073 -- Matthew King to Update aria-selected to reflect that it communicates selectability and clarify responsibility for ensuring aria-selected=false is on selectable elements -- due 2014-11-18 -- OPEN
18:51:11 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1073
18:51:51 <jamesn> mk: target end of march
18:52:21 <jamesn> ACTION-1361?
18:52:21 <trackbot> ACTION-1361 -- James Nurthen to Suggest new text for the application role -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
18:52:21 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1361
18:54:45 <clown> action-1363
18:54:45 <trackbot> action-1363 -- James Craig to Patch issue-603: aria-startsmedia -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
18:54:45 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1363
18:55:02 <jamesn> a note to make it modality specific
18:58:30 <jamesn> mk: part of me is wondering would the screen reader want to know does the media start playing and the author believes that the author's intent
19:00:32 <jamesn> jn: can we wait until jc is here to discuss
19:01:02 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
19:01:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-aria-minutes.html jamesn
19:01:24 <Zakim> - +1.512.445.aaee
19:01:26 <jamesn> zakim, please part
19:01:26 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, +1.719.339.aaaa, Joanmarie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Jon_Gunderson, +1.703.978.aabb,
19:01:26 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
19:01:29 <Zakim> ... +1.719.339.aacc, Michael_Cooper, Fred_Esch, Matt_King, Alexander_Surkov, +1.650.738.aadd, +1.512.445.aaee, [Microsoft]
19:01:49 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
19:01:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-aria-minutes.html jamesn
19:06:11 <jamesn> present+  Michael_Cooper, Fred_Esch, Matt_King, Alexander_Surkov, Cynthia_Shelly
19:06:14 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
19:06:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-aria-minutes.html jamesn
19:12:22 <clown> clown has joined #aria
20:02:19 <janina> janina has changed the topic to: ARIA Teleconference; Thursday 26 February at 17:30Z; Zakim 2742#
20:21:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
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