<richardschwerdtfeger> scribenick: Rich

What do we plan to do for blind users?

<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I would like to scope the taskforce effort. … the 6 disabilities under wcag2

<shepazu> AmeliaBR's email: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2015Jan/0065.html

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I have an opinion on everything

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: from the gist of I thought there was an interesting discussion about the scope of the group

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: normative vs. informative

<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I think there has been guidance put out there

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: for each of these items it would be good for us to say that if there something good for us to be doing best practices vs. what ht platform implementations will support

<AmeliaBR> +1 to idea that this discussion should focus on dividing up what can be done with author guidance, what needs browser support, what needs browser+AT+authors working together, etc.

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: so, authors, the best practice is for the author to use titles to apply meta data for blind users

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: there is no normative requirement for exposing the requirement via the user agent

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: rich has discussed how you discuss the accessible name

<richardschwerdtfeger> rich: doug, do you think we can normatively expect user agents to expose title as a tooltip

<richardschwerdtfeger> charles: I don’t think so. It is a UI choice for user agents to expose things in a certain way

<richardschwerdtfeger> charles: so there are UI choices that we make. The focus management is something the user agent can do

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: there are exceptions - rendering a rectangle is normative

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: for example, on a mobile device you don’t have hover

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: on a mobile device the title could be exposed at the bottom

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: since user agents do render tooltips as a title display properties can control the rendering

<richardschwerdtfeger> rich: I would not want to have title required as it as side effects

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: title does not allow child content so we might want to have other content meta data that allows content

<richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: Just following up this general conversation would it be possible to require browser manufacturers to render title some way?

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: it could be a should

<richardschwerdtfeger> charles: there is no law of the universe on this

<richardschwerdtfeger> charles: if you express the requirement in a way that makes sense there is a way to talk normative requirements into the spec.

<shepazu> +1

<richardschwerdtfeger> charles: you can cause endless problems for very little value, if ou do this wrong - which makes people very sceptical of adding normative UI requirements and this is the right way for them to be

<richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: titles uses tooltips because titles are not always the best text for a label

<richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: I agree we do have aria-label now as well.

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: we recognize that some people want the title to be used as tooltips

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: there were a different set of authors back then.

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: there is a reason that people are warry of specifying these things. browser vendors don’t like it when you tell them how they must render things

<chaals> [+1]

<richardschwerdtfeger> charles: aria is not actually in my world a great solution for a lot of things

<Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say ARIA-labels are currently not that good either…

<richardschwerdtfeger> charles: what do we pan to do for blind users?

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: most of what we have talked about thus far has been to support blind users

<richardschwerdtfeger> charles: the first things we should do for users we should identify problems face using SVG

<richardschwerdtfeger> charles: It's a bad idea to try and sort out SVG by going one disability at a time - wee need to look at problems, and the common threads we have. But for the specific question

<richardschwerdtfeger> charles: because we can’t see things visually we are trying to make semantic structure available

<richardschwerdtfeger> charles: here is the solution for blind users and others with 10% vision

<richardschwerdtfeger> charles: what we choose to do depends on how fast we chose to do them

<richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: I think this is a good point. We need to think about all the use cases and all the commonality

<richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: the blind users are the most obvious users that need the most technological help but one thing to mention is that there is another category of users - for tactile users

<chaals> [NB: There are significantly more colour-blind users than zero-vision users…]

<richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: same original probem

<chaals> [+1 to the statement that there are big gaps in WCAG 2]

<fesch> RS: role of aria -and WCAG WCAG does not address cognitive disabilities

<fesch> RS: what aria does is work with screen readers and provide object locations, and supports mobility impaired with SVG keyboard support

<fesch> RS: alternate views need to look at semantics, but we can't do that if all low level graphic primitives

<fesch> RS: pan and zoom is a nice feature in user agents... don't know if it affects us

<fesch> RS: aria does more than screen reading, when we have gaps, can address with authoring practices

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: you mentioned the line thickness thing. You mentioned the non-scaling strokes

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: If I zoomed in on a building diagam, as we soom in 10 times the perspective stays the same

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I had a grid up on the screen and the projector would not adjust to a 1 pixel widht

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: allow the user to increase the default line width

<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: you know what you are low vision and you wnat lines to be this thick

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: why can’t we have media queries but for preferences.

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: why can’t we have media query preferences

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: why do we have to have one design for everyone?

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: why have one size fits everyone

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I think this is something for the CSS working group to discuss

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: people are concerned about exposing their personal impairments

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: for those people don’t set these preferences

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: making sure the text does not goe outside a particular boundary

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: SVG2 will allow wrapped text

<fesch> rs: personalization in GPII is not new, for cognitive ti is not an option - each person has different needs

<fesch> rs: you can see the work - schema.org

<fesch> rs: also working with media queries group

<fesch> rs: we had a lot of concerns - and getting info from schema.org and we may be able to roll into media queries

<fesch> rs: WebAIM polls -

<richardschwerdtfeger> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html

<fesch> rs: WebAIM polls we want exposed from the user agent.

<fesch> rs: going through all user agent meta data

<fesch> rs: lots is in CSS4 with media queries need to add requirements for other groups for our gap analysis

<fesch> rs: did a similar thing for aria - in gap analysis

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: webaim ran an accessibility pole and they asked people who use AT are you comfortable with letting people know that you are blind?

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: initially they said no.

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: last year they had an enthusiastic yes

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I would like to allow a designer to have a hip design with small fonts but with you aging users provide this alternative

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: If you can automate things that would be good

<fesch> lol

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: This is the best color scheme for you

<richardschwerdtfeger> leonie: I think we need to go back to being as simple as possible

<Zakim> LJWatson, you wanted to say maybe we should start to document problems, then look for solutions

<chaals> [+1 to Léonie - I think requiring people to identify has a long way to go before it's a reasonable objective]

<fesch> rs: trying to expose features that don't make a declaration of their impairments

<fesch> rs: schema.org can have settings that don't declare an impairment, can do it different ways

<richardschwerdtfeger> charles: I am not yet on the same page

<richardschwerdtfeger> charles: the accessibility testing tool disappears in the noise

<richardschwerdtfeger> charles: there is a lot of reasons where self identification requirements all the way to the server is a non-starter

<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: what if it does not go back to the server?

<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: the idea of having a pre-processor that would be fine by you

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: the initial answer is that it can be in the browser and they can take your computed style. We are going to collect the information and sending it up

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: the visited link, where you had a list of bank sites where the visited links were colored a certain way you could use the computed color to find out where they went

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: so the way the browsers dealt with that, we are not gong to tell you the computed styles.

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I think we are way off topic

<richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: I wanted to say the same as doug. We can use media queries in the browser but there ways around it.

<richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: if you have stuff where the user and browser do things to make things look better ...

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: a lot of users, … I want the stroke width to be 2 vs. 1

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: many users won’t even now font size

<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: charles suggested identifiying problems

<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: do we do type and identify problems?

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: address things on wikis. while I try to address these things in presentations I don’t know all the detailed issues

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I don’t know how to really navigate around with a puff sip device

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: SVG is great for cognitive issues

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: color blind issues need to be addressed by css

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: we could work with color vision issues in the CSS working group

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: somebody said that the text is the default way to interact with the web

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: graphs can also be sonified

<chaals> [+1 to doug that there are approaches beyond text representation for blind people to use the web]

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: we should make it easy for sonification to be done

<richardschwerdtfeger> charles: +10000 for using a wiki

<richardschwerdtfeger> charles: actually there are benefits to addressing the reading level of users

<richardschwerdtfeger> charles: graphics do have an impact on cognitively impaired users

<richardschwerdtfeger> charles: we are going to have gaps in our knowledge

<shepazu> https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility

<richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: we need to break down what are the main problems and the solutions

<richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: We need to identify the problems and how do we make those solutions happen

<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: lets list the problems by accessibility type

<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: next week we can go from there

<shepazu> https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility

<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: start on the wiki page and branch out from there

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140  of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/little value/little value, if ou do this wrong - which makes people very sceptical of adding normative UI requirements/
Succeeded: s/1+//
Succeeded: s/we fixed things for blind users/It's a bad idea to try and sort out SVG by going one disability at a time - wee need to look at problems, and the common threads we have. But for the specific question/
Succeeded: s/dough/doug/
Succeeded: s/decoration/declaration/
Succeeded: s/back sites/bank sites/
Found ScribeNick: Rich
WARNING: No scribe lines found matching ScribeNick pattern: <Rich> ...
Inferring Scribes: Rich

WARNING: 0 scribe lines found (out of 242 total lines.)
Are you sure you specified a correct ScribeNick?


WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: Amelia AmeliaBR Amy CharuP Doug_Schepers IPcaller Jason_White LJWatson P17 RS Rich_Schwerdtfeger aaaa aabb aacc chaals chaals1 charles doug fesch fred https inserted leonie rich richardschwerdtfeger scribenick shepazu
You can indicate people for the Present list like this:
        <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary
        <dbooth> Present+ amy

Got date from IRC log name: 06 Feb 2015
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/02/06-svg-a11y-minutes.html
People with action items: