14:02:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg-a11y
14:02:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/06-svg-a11y-irc
14:02:27 <LJWatson> rrsagent, this is 2742
14:02:27 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'this is 2742', LJWatson.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:02:42 <LJWatson> zakim, this is 2742
14:02:43 <Zakim> ok, LJWatson; that matches WAI_SVGTF()9:00AM
14:02:48 <Zakim> + +1.781.565.aaaa
14:02:50 <LJWatson> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:02:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see fesch, Doug_Schepers, ??P17, [IPcaller], +1.781.565.aaaa
14:03:01 <LJWatson> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
14:03:01 <Zakim> +LJWatson; got it
14:03:11 <LJWatson> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
14:03:20 <AmeliaBR> zakim, ??P17 is me
14:03:20 <Zakim> +AmeliaBR; got it
14:03:28 <Amy> Amy has joined #svg-a11y
14:04:39 <shepazu> Zakim, aaaa is Amy
14:04:39 <Zakim> +Amy; got it
14:06:03 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
14:06:04 <LJWatson> agenda+ What do we plan to do for blind users?
14:06:30 <fesch> agenda+ What do we plan to do for color blind users?
14:06:43 <fesch> agenda+What do we plan to do for non AT using low vision users?
14:07:03 <fesch> agenda+What do we plan to do to support uses with cognitive issues?
14:07:21 <chaals1> zakim, code?
14:07:21 <Zakim> the conference code is 2742 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), chaals1
14:07:24 <fesch> agenda+What do we plan to do for mobility impaired users?
14:07:36 <fesch> agenda+What do we plan to do for deaf users?
14:07:39 <shepazu> q+
14:07:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> scribenick: Rich
14:07:50 <shepazu> Zakim, agenda
14:07:50 <Zakim> I don't understand 'agenda', shepazu
14:08:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, next item
14:08:02 <Zakim> agendum 1. "What do we plan to do for blind users?" taken up [from LJWatson]
14:08:10 <shepazu> Zakim, agenda?
14:08:10 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
14:08:12 <Zakim> 1. What do we plan to do for blind users? [from LJWatson]
14:08:12 <Zakim> 2. What do we plan to do for color blind users? [from fesch]
14:08:12 <Zakim> 3. What do we plan to do for non AT using low vision users? [from fesch]
14:08:12 <Zakim> 4. What do we plan to do to support uses with cognitive issues? [from fesch]
14:08:13 <Zakim> 5. What do we plan to do for mobility impaired users? [from fesch]
14:08:13 <Zakim> 6. What do we plan to do for deaf users? [from fesch]
14:08:20 <chaals1> zakim, code?
14:08:20 <Zakim> the conference code is 2742 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), chaals1
14:08:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I would like to scope the taskforce effort. … the 6 disabilities under wcag2
14:08:56 <shepazu> AmeliaBR's email: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2015Jan/0065.html
14:09:11 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:09:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I have an opinion on everything
14:09:19 <chaals1> zakim, [ip is me
14:09:19 <Zakim> +chaals1; got it
14:09:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: from the gist of I thought there was an interesting discussion about the scope of the group
14:09:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: normative vs. informative
14:10:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I think there has been guidance put out there
14:10:53 <chaals1> q+
14:11:02 <LJWatson> q+
14:11:07 <chaals> q- later
14:11:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: for each of these items it would be good for us to say that if there something good for us to be doing best practices vs. what ht platform implementations will support
14:11:14 <Zakim> + +1.609.906.aabb
14:11:34 <AmeliaBR> +1 to idea that this discussion should focus on dividing up what can be done with author guidance, what needs browser support, what needs browser+AT+authors working together, etc.
14:11:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: so, authors, the best practice is for the author to use titles to apply meta data for blind users
14:12:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: there is no normative requirement for exposing the requirement via the user agent
14:12:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: rich has discussed how you discuss the accessible name
14:13:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: doug, do you think we can normatively expect user agents to expose title as a tooltip
14:13:38 <LJWatson> ack me
14:13:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> charles: I don’t think so. It is a UI choice for user agents to expose things in a certain way
14:13:58 <Zakim> + +1.512.238.aacc
14:14:12 <CharuP> CharuP has joined #svg-a11y
14:14:14 <AmeliaBR> q+
14:14:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> charles: so there are UI choices that we make. The focus management is something the user agent can do
14:14:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: there are exceptions - rendering a rectangle is normative
14:14:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: for example, on a mobile device you don’t have hover
14:15:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: on a mobile device the title could be exposed at the bottom
14:15:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: since user agents do render tooltips as a title display properties can control the rendering
14:16:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: I would not want to have title required as it as side effects
14:17:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug:  title does not allow child content so we might want to have other content meta data that allows content
14:17:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
14:17:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack shepazu
14:17:28 <chaals> q-
14:18:09 <fesch> q?
14:18:11 <chaals> q+
14:18:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: Just following up this general conversation would it be possible to require browser manufacturers to render title some way?
14:18:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: it could be a should
14:18:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> charles: there is no law of the universe on this
14:19:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> charles: if you express the requirement in a way that makes sense there is a way to talk normative requirements into the spec.
14:19:47 <shepazu> +1
14:20:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> charles: you can cause endless problems for very little value and this is the right way for them to be
14:20:41 <chaals> s/little value/little value, if ou do this wrong - which makes people very sceptical of adding normative UI requirements
14:20:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: titles uses tooltips because titles are not always the best text for a label
14:20:43 <chaals> q+
14:20:58 <chaals> q+ to say ARIA-labels are currently not that good either…
14:21:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: I agree we do have aria-label now as well.
14:21:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: we recognize that some people want the title to be used as tooltips
14:21:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: there were a different set of authors back then.
14:21:44 <fesch> q?
14:22:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: there is a reason that people are warry of specifying these things. browser vendors don’t like it when you tell them how they must render things
14:22:13 <AmeliaBR> ack me
14:22:18 <chaals> [+1]
14:22:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> charles: aria is not actually in my world a great solution for a lot of things
14:22:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
14:22:56 <chaals> ack me
14:22:56 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say ARIA-labels are currently not that good either…
14:24:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack richard
14:24:39 <shepazu> q+
14:24:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> charles: what do we pan to do for blind users?
14:25:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: most of what we have talked about thus far has been to support blind users
14:25:12 <chaals> q+
14:25:28 <AmeliaBR> q+
14:25:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> 1+
14:25:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
14:25:38 <chaals> s/1+//
14:25:55 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
14:25:57 <chaals> ack she
14:26:00 <chaals> ack me
14:26:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
14:26:24 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
14:26:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> charles: the first things we should do for users we should identify problems face using SVG
14:26:52 <shepazu> q+
14:26:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> charles: we fixed things for blind users
14:27:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> charles: because we can’t see things visually we are trying to make semantic structure available
14:28:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> charles: here is the solution for blind users and others with 10% vision
14:28:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> charles: what we choose to do depends on how fast we chose to do them
14:29:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: I think this is a good point. We need to think about all the use cases and all the commonality
14:29:46 <chaals> s/we fixed things for blind users/It's a bad idea to try and sort out SVG by going one disability at a time - wee need to look at problems, and the common threads we have. But for the specific question
14:30:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: the blind users are the most obvious users that need the most technological help but one thing to mention is that there is another category of users - for tactile users
14:30:19 <fesch> q+
14:30:21 <chaals> [NB: There are significantly more colour-blind users than zero-vision users…]
14:30:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: same original probem
14:30:27 <fesch> ack Amelia
14:31:00 <chaals> [+1 to the statement that there are big gaps in WCAG 2]
14:31:06 <fesch> RS: role of aria -and WCAG   WCAG does not address cognitive disabilities
14:31:44 <fesch> RS: what aria does is work with screen readers and provide object locations, and supports mobility impaired with SVG keyboard support
14:32:35 <fesch> RS: alternate views need to look at semantics, but we can't do that if all low level graphic primitives
14:33:05 <fesch> RS: pan and zoom is a nice feature in user agents... don't know if it affects us
14:33:35 <fesch> RS: aria does more than screen reading,   when we have gaps, can address with authoring practices
14:33:41 <fesch> q?
14:33:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack richardschwerdtfeger
14:35:24 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: you mentioned the  line thickness thing. You mentioned the non-scaling strokes
14:36:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: If I zoomed in on a building diagam, as we soom in 10 times the perspective stays the same
14:36:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I had a grid up on the screen and the projector would not adjust to a 1 pixel widht
14:36:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: allow the user to increase the default line width
14:37:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: you know what you are low vision and you wnat lines to be this thick
14:37:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: why can’t we have media queries but for preferences.
14:37:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
14:37:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack shepazu
14:37:49 <fesch> ack me
14:38:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: why can’t we have media query preferences
14:38:24 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: why do we have to have one design for everyone?
14:38:32 <LJWatson> q+ to say maybe we should start to document problems, then look for solutions
14:38:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: why have one size fits everyone
14:39:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I think this is something for the CSS working group to discuss
14:39:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: people are concerned about exposing their personal impairments
14:39:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: for those people don’t set these preferences
14:39:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: making sure the text does not goe outside a particular boundary
14:39:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: SVG2 will allow wrapped text
14:40:37 <fesch> rs: personalization in GPII is not new,  for cognitive ti is not an option - each person has different needs
14:40:55 <fesch> rs: you can see the work - schema.org
14:41:20 <fesch> rs: also working with media queries group
14:41:59 <fesch> rs: we had a lot of concerns - and getting info from schema.org and we may be able to roll into media queries
14:42:18 <fesch> rs: WebAIM polls -
14:42:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html
14:42:49 <fesch> rs: WebAIM polls we want exposed from the user agent.
14:43:10 <shepazu> q+
14:43:12 <fesch> rs: going through all user agent meta data
14:43:23 <shepazu> ack richardschwerdtfeger
14:43:54 <Zakim> - +1.609.906.aabb
14:43:55 <fesch> rs: lots is in CSS4 with media queries  need to add requirements for other groups for our gap analysis
14:44:14 <fesch> rs: did a similar thing for aria - in gap analysis
14:44:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: webaim ran an accessibility pole and they asked people who use AT are you comfortable with letting people know that you are blind?
14:44:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: initially they said no.
14:45:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: last year they had an enthusiastic yes
14:45:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I would like to allow a designer to have a hip design with small fonts but with you aging users provide this alternative
14:46:00 <Zakim> +Jason_White
14:46:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> dough: If you can automate things that would be good
14:46:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> s/dough/doug/
14:46:23 <fesch> lol
14:46:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: This is the best color scheme for you
14:46:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
14:46:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> leonie: I think we need to go back to being as simple as possible
14:47:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack LJWatson
14:47:05 <Zakim> LJWatson, you wanted to say maybe we should start to document problems, then look for solutions
14:47:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack shep
14:47:44 <LJWatson> ack me
14:47:48 <chaals> [+1 to Léonie - I think requiring people to identify has a long way to go before it's a reasonable objective]
14:48:08 <fesch> rs: trying to expose features that don't make a decoration of their impairments
14:48:41 <AmeliaBR> s/decoration/declaration/
14:48:45 <fesch> rs: schema.org can have settings that don't declare an impairment, can do it different ways
14:48:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
14:48:48 <chaals> q+
14:48:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack richardschwerdtfeger
14:48:57 <fesch> ack rich
14:49:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> charles: I am not yet on the same page
14:49:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> charles: the accessibility testing tool disappears in the noise
14:49:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> charles: there is a lot of reasons where self identification requirements all the way to the server is a non-starter
14:49:57 <fesch> q+
14:50:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack chaals
14:50:20 <chaals> ack me
14:50:27 <fesch> ack me
14:50:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: what if it does not go back to the server?
14:50:40 <shepazu> q+
14:51:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: the idea of having a pre-processor that would be fine by you
14:51:10 <AmeliaBR> q+
14:51:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack shepazu
14:51:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: the initial answer is that it can be in the browser and they can take your computed style. We are going to collect the information and sending it up
14:52:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: the visited link, where you had a list of back sites where the visited links were colored a certain way you could use the computed color to find out where they went
14:53:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: so the way the browsers dealt with that, we are not gong to tell you the computed styles.
14:53:04 <AmeliaBR> s/back sites/bank sites/
14:53:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I think we are way off topic
14:53:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
14:53:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack Amelia
14:54:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: I wanted to say the same as doug. We can use media queries in the browser but there ways around it.
14:54:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: if you have stuff where the user and browser do things to make things look better ...
14:54:49 <fesch> q?
14:55:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: a lot of users, … I want the stroke width to be 2 vs. 1
14:55:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: many users won’t even now font size
14:56:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> agenda?
14:56:09 <shepazu> Zakim, agenda+
14:56:24 <shepazu> q+
14:56:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: charles suggested identifiying problems
14:56:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: do we do type and identify problems?
14:57:07 <chaals> q+
14:57:24 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: address things on wikis. while I try to address these things in presentations I don’t know all the detailed issues
14:57:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack shepazu
14:57:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I don’t know how to really navigate around with a puff sip device
14:58:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: SVG is great for cognitive issues
14:58:11 <AmeliaBR> q+
14:58:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: color blind issues need to be addressed by css
14:58:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: we could work with color vision issues in the CSS working group
14:59:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: somebody said that the text is the default way to interact with the web
14:59:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: graphs can also be sonified
14:59:29 <chaals> [+1 to doug that there are approaches beyond text representation for blind people to use the web]
14:59:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: we should make it easy for sonification to be done
14:59:52 <chaals> ack me
15:00:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> charles: +10000 for using a wiki
15:00:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> charles: actually there are benefits to addressing the reading level of users
15:00:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> charles: graphics do have an impact on cognitively impaired users
15:01:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> charles: we are going to have gaps in our knowledge
15:01:19 <AmeliaBR> ack me
15:01:20 <shepazu> https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility
15:01:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: we need to break down what are the main problems and the solutions
15:02:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: We need to identify the problems and how do we make those solutions happen
15:02:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: lets list the problems by accessibility type
15:02:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: next week we can go from there
15:02:53 <shepazu> https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility
15:03:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: start on the wiki page and branch out from there
15:04:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
15:04:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Fred
15:04:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C SVG Accessibility Task Force
15:04:30 <Zakim> - +1.512.238.aacc
15:04:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:04:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/06-svg-a11y-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
15:04:59 <chaals> [putting links to other resources we have robbed is useful too]
15:05:13 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:05:14 <Zakim> -chaals1
15:05:14 <Zakim> -LJWatson
15:05:19 <Zakim> -Jason_White
15:05:33 <Zakim> -Amy
15:05:34 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
15:05:34 <Zakim> -fesch
15:05:36 <Zakim> -AmeliaBR
15:05:37 <Zakim> WAI_SVGTF()9:00AM has ended
15:05:37 <Zakim> Attendees were fesch, Doug_Schepers, +1.781.565.aaaa, LJWatson, AmeliaBR, Amy, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, [IPcaller], chaals1, +1.609.906.aabb, +1.512.238.aacc, Jason_White
15:08:06 <CharuP> CharuP has left #svg-a11y
17:10:37 <chaals> chaals has joined #svg-a11y
18:17:55 <chaals> chaals has joined #svg-a11y