Semantic Web Health Care and Life Sciences Interest Group Teleconference -- 09 Dec 2014

<trackbot> Date: 09 December 2014

<Tony> I do not have audio today

<Claude_Nanjo> https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/157514853

<Claude_Nanjo> Please join the gotomeeting to see the presentation:

<Claude_Nanjo> https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/157514853

http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=ITS_RDF_Concall_Minutes_20141202

Action review

<scribe> ACTION: ericP to set up tracker meeting name [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-minutes.html#action01] -- DONE

<trackbot> Created ACTION-7 - Set up tracker meeting name [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-minutes.html#action01] -- done [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2014-12-16].

<ericP> i think i performed my action to set up tracker

<ericP> cool. all agree

<scribe> ACTION: Tony to find out more details about how iCat handles ICD-11 ont and report back [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action01] -- PENDING

<trackbot> Error finding 'Tony'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2014/HCLS/track/users>.

<scribe> ACTION: Guoqian to figure out whether he can share URI conventions for ICD-11 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-minutes.html#action07] -- PENDING

<trackbot> Created ACTION-8 - Figure out whether he can share uri conventions for icd-11 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-minutes.html#action07] -- pending [on Guoqian Jiang - due 2014-12-16].

<scribe> ACTION: Kerstin and Ingeborg to prepare a status and future state ideas for PhUSE-FDA work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Error finding 'Kerstin'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2014/HCLS/track/users>.

Kerstin: Contact with someone working on PhUSE-FDA. Tim is setting up someone to talk with use.

<scribe> ACTION: DBooth to check on getting Frederik Malfait to talk with us on PhUSE-FDA work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/12/09-hcls-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Error finding 'DBooth'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2014/HCLS/track/users>.

<scribe> ACTION: Eric to establish/make a wiki page for C-CDA RDF representations work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action06] -- PEND

<trackbot> Created ACTION-9 - Establish/make a wiki page for c-cda rdf representations work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action06] -- pend [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2014-12-16].

<scribe> PENDING

<scribe> ACTION: Eric and Joshua to report on C-CDA RDF representations work plan [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-10 - And joshua to report on c-cda rdf representations work plan [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action07] [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2014-12-16].

Josh: Haven't set up web page yet. Looking for good example sets, w interesting queries for genomic data. Expect next week something on wiki.

<scribe> ACTION: Tony and Rob to report their plan on High-level concept mapping to RDF work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Error finding 'Tony'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2014/HCLS/track/users>.

Rob: Had some conversation. Working on the document that Tony started. Trying to flesh that out.

David: URL for that document?

<scribe> ACTION: Rob to get the High-level concept mapping document on the web [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/12/09-hcls-minutes.html#action09]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-11 - Get the document on the web [on Rob Frost - due 2014-12-16].

<scribe> ACTION: Tony and all to decide on a wiki for Term Info work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action09]

<trackbot> Error finding 'Tony'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2014/HCLS/track/users>.

<scribe> PENDING

Minutes Approval

http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=ITS_RDF_Concall_Minutes_20141202

Unanimuously approved.

<Claude_Nanjo> https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/157514853

FHIR ontology approach

<inserted> Claude's slides: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/10QQaOTuLxwqdPVW4sWncSiSRNhqNrpn3RAbdmPmrihs/edit#slide=id.p4

David: Suggest break-out calls on the technical details on FHIR ontologies.

Marc: Should also summarize

http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=FHIR_Ontology_Requirements&action=edit&redlink=1

<Neda> Can u please send the join.me link again?

David: That's the link for collecting requirements for FHIR ontology

<ericP> dbooth, if you want to knock off an action, i've changed action-4 to pending review

ericP, thanks!

Claude: Two ways to treat data types: primitives vs extensible primitives.
... Extended primitives are objects.
... Lloyd and thought that having two kinds of primitives, we might remove the simple primitive types and just using the object types.

LLoyd: For reasoning, you may want to make statements about whether a value is present.
... More complex by taking the JSON approach: there's a simple property that contains the value, and an extension property that has the extension and other stuff.
... In JSON that makes sense because you're primarily sharing data. But in RDF you're going to be interesting in manipulating the data in SPARQL and things like that, so the common case is probably less important than easy query and manipulation.

Claude: Another question: how to distinguish FHIR extensions from other FHIR extensions?
... One way is to put extensions in a separate namespace from FHIR Core.
... Another approach is to derive from the "extension" property hierarchy.
... Interesting challenges: suppose you have something in FHIR Core, and you want to extend it. You couldn't with this approach.
... You could say your extension is equivalent to the FHIR Core property though.

Lloyd: HL7 can define modifier extensions, though it might not.
... Unlikely to do so, but possible.

Paul: There are modifier extensions, but not on datatypes.

David: Not sure that having modifierExtension as a kind of extension will give the proper non-monotonic semantics for modifier extensions.

Claude: Right, i'll get to that.
... FHIR framework has an "Other" resource for extensions, which must be in an extension namespace.
... Modifying extensions are problematic because they could potentially completely modify the semantics.
... E.g., you could add a status=refuted to a condition, to indicate that a patient does NOT have that condition.
... In essence you are making a statement that something is refuted.
... How should it be interpreted? One possibility: restriction classes, such as ConditionRefuted class where status==refuted; and ConditionPresence class where status != refuted.

Paul: Two issues: 1. how to represent modifier extension. 2. How to know whether something is modified?

Lloyd: You either need to separate out things that are known to not have modifiers, versus things that have modifiers.

Paul: You cannot continue with reasoning if there is a modifier.

Lloyd: You're excluding any instances that contain unknown modifier extension.

David: This might be good to diagram!

Lloyd: I can create a class that is constrained to have not modifier extensions.

Claude: In this approach, would we only concern ourselves with modifier extensions?

Lloyd: Need to consider them in the base ontology, but you cannot reason against it. Reasoning would be against a constrained ontology with classes that are constrained to have no unknown modifiers.

paul: Can the exclusion be on the basis of type, instead of cardinality (0 modifier extensions).
... Say, "these are the modifiers that I understand, and all others must be excluded"

David: Scope of influence of a modifier extension is limited to the enclosing node and its descendents?

Lloyd: Right.
... If you have a modifier on PatientPhoneNumber, it changes the meaning of the phone number, but not the DOB.

Paul: If I have a modifier at the root of Encounter ...

Lloyd: Then it changes everthing in it -- the Encounter and all of its descendents and all of the properties in it.

Paul: If you're looking at fine grained elements, you need to look at everything above as well for any modifiers.

Claude: If you extended FHIR core, then you'd have to represent it for every combination. In the core ont, would we want something similar?
... E.g., status=refuted.

Lloyd: You mean modifier elements, not modifying extensions.
... Would need a way to handle the various combinations of modifier elements and give them all useful names. That would free up the clutter in the ont.
... Could be done, or could be done manually.
... If there were combinations of modifier elements, you could define a supplemental ont that built on the base FHIR ont and allowed you to reason against them.

Claude: Can OWL better link terminology to the model?

<Marc_Twagirumukiza> sorry need to leave

<Marc_Twagirumukiza> I will catch up later on

Claude: Possible to tie Coding to specific disorder in another ont using sameAs?
... To link it to terminologies like SNOMED and LOINC.

Lloyd: The condition has a concept, which is a specialization of the concept represented by each of the codings.
... You can then say that the coding concept is a subset of your desired concept.

Ingeborg: I got involved in this for mapping purposes. Thinking of CDISC to LOINC.

Lloyd: Suggest working on requirements for FHIR ont on the next call, along with Cecil's FHIR ont review.

Others: Good idea.

ADJOURNED

s/action06] -- PEND/action06] -- PENDINGING/

- DRAFT -

Semantic Web Health Care and Life Sciences Interest Group Teleconference

09 Dec 2014

Attendees

Contents

Action review

Minutes Approval

FHIR ontology approach

Summary of Action Items

Scribe.perl diagnostic output