15:58:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #hcls
15:58:06 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/09-hcls-irc
15:58:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:58:08 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #hcls
15:58:10 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HCLS
15:58:10 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_HCLS()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
15:58:11 <trackbot> Meeting: Semantic Web Health Care and Life Sciences Interest Group Teleconference
15:58:11 <trackbot> Date: 09 December 2014
15:58:47 <Zakim> SW_HCLS()11:00AM has now started
15:58:54 <Zakim> +DBooth
16:00:27 <Zakim> +Joshua_Phillips
16:00:39 <Zakim> + +1.970.490.aaaa
16:01:48 <dbooth> zakim, aaaa is Dave_McComb
16:01:48 <Zakim> +Dave_McComb; got it
16:01:50 <Ingeborg> Ingeborg has joined #HCLS
16:01:54 <Zakim> +Kerstin_Forsberg
16:02:07 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:02:07 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:02:23 <Tony> Tony has joined #HCLS
16:02:48 <dbooth> dbooth has changed the topic to: http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=ITS_RDF_ConCall_Agenda
16:02:52 <Tony> I do not have audio today
16:03:38 <Claude_Nanjo> Claude_Nanjo has joined #hcls
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16:03:48 <Zakim> +Joshua_Phillips.a
16:04:02 <dbooth> zakim, IPcaller is Claude_Nanjo
16:04:02 <Zakim> +Claude_Nanjo; got it
16:04:13 <Zakim> +rhausam
16:04:34 <Claude_Nanjo> https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/157514853
16:04:44 <vassil> vassil has joined #HCLS
16:04:45 <RHausam> RHausam has joined #HCLS
16:05:15 <Dave_McComb> Dave_McComb has joined #HCLS
16:05:17 <dbooth> zakim, IPcaller.a is Lloyd_McKenzie
16:05:17 <Zakim> +Lloyd_McKenzie; got it
16:05:21 <Lloyd> Lloyd has joined #HCLS
16:05:31 <dbooth> zakim, who is here?
16:05:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see DBooth, Joshua_Phillips, Dave_McComb, Kerstin_Forsberg, Claude_Nanjo, Lloyd_McKenzie, Joshua_Phillips.a, rhausam
16:05:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see Lloyd, Dave_McComb, RHausam, vassil, Kerstin_Forsberg, Claude_Nanjo, Tony, Ingeborg, Zakim, RRSAgent, trackbot, dbooth, TallTed, egonw__, cloudcell, ericP
16:05:33 <Zakim> + +1.608.271.aabb
16:05:43 <Joshua_Phillips> Joshua_Phillips has joined #HCLS
16:05:51 <dbooth> zakim, aabb is Vssil
16:05:51 <Zakim> +Vssil; got it
16:05:59 <Claude_Nanjo> https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/157514853
16:06:11 <Zakim> + +1.604.250.aacc
16:06:21 <Marc_Twagirumukiza> Marc_Twagirumukiza has joined #HCLS
16:06:26 <dbooth> zakim, aacc is Paul_Knapp
16:06:26 <Zakim> +Paul_Knapp; got it
16:07:07 <vassil> zakim, aabb is vassil
16:07:07 <Zakim> sorry, vassil, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
16:07:09 <dbooth> zakim, who is here?
16:07:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see DBooth, Joshua_Phillips, Dave_McComb, Kerstin_Forsberg, Claude_Nanjo, Lloyd_McKenzie, Joshua_Phillips.a, rhausam, Vssil, Paul_Knapp
16:07:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see Marc_Twagirumukiza, Joshua_Phillips, Lloyd, Dave_McComb, RHausam, vassil, Kerstin_Forsberg, Claude_Nanjo, Tony, Ingeborg, Zakim, RRSAgent, trackbot, dbooth, TallTed,
16:07:12 <Zakim> ... egonw__, cloudcell, ericP
16:07:14 <Claude_Nanjo> Please join the gotomeeting to see the presentation:
16:07:18 <Claude_Nanjo> https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/157514853
16:07:26 <Zakim> +??P42
16:07:37 <vassil> zakim, Vssil is vassil
16:07:37 <Zakim> +vassil; got it
16:07:42 <dbooth> zakim, ??P42 is Marc
16:07:42 <Zakim> +Marc; got it
16:08:07 <dbooth> Topic: Approve minutes
16:08:07 <dbooth> http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=ITS_RDF_Concall_Minutes_20141202
16:09:07 <pknapp> pknapp has joined #HCLS
16:09:13 <dbooth> Topic: Action review
16:09:26 <dbooth> ACTION: ericP to set up tracker meeting name [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-minutes.html#action01]  -- DONE
16:09:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-7 - Set up tracker meeting name [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-minutes.html#action01]  -- done [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2014-12-16].
16:09:29 <ericP> i think i performed my action to set up tracker
16:09:42 <ericP> cool. all agree
16:09:55 <dbooth> ACTION: Tony to find out more details about how iCat handles ICD-11 ont and report back [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action01] -- PENDING
16:09:55 <trackbot> Error finding 'Tony'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2014/HCLS/track/users>.
16:10:06 <dbooth> ACTION: Guoqian to figure out whether he can share URI conventions for ICD-11 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-minutes.html#action07]  --  PENDING
16:10:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-8 - Figure out whether he can share uri conventions for icd-11 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-minutes.html#action07]  --  pending [on Guoqian Jiang - due 2014-12-16].
16:10:24 <dbooth> ACTION: Kerstin and Ingeborg to prepare a status and future state ideas for PhUSE-FDA work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action05]
16:10:24 <trackbot> Error finding 'Kerstin'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2014/HCLS/track/users>.
16:10:33 <Zakim> +Neda
16:11:01 <dbooth> Kerstin: Contact with someone working on PhUSE-FDA.  Tim is setting up someone to talk with use.
16:11:10 <dbooth> ACTION: DBooth to check on the above
16:11:18 <trackbot> Error finding 'DBooth'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2014/HCLS/track/users>.
16:11:25 <Zakim> + +1.206.660.aadd
16:11:39 <dbooth> ACTION: Eric to establish/make a wiki page for C-CDA RDF representations work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action06]  -- PEND
16:11:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-9 - Establish/make a wiki page for c-cda rdf representations work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action06]  -- pend [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2014-12-16].
16:11:41 <dbooth> PENDING
16:11:56 <dbooth> ACTION: Eric and Joshua to report on C-CDA RDF representations work plan [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action07]
16:11:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-10 - And joshua to report on c-cda rdf representations work plan [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action07] [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2014-12-16].
16:12:22 <dbooth> Josh: Haven't set up web page yet.  Looking for good example sets, w interesting queries for genomic data.  Expect next week something on wiki.
16:12:38 <dbooth> ACTION: Tony and Rob to report their plan on High-level concept mapping to RDF work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action08]
16:12:38 <trackbot> Error finding 'Tony'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2014/HCLS/track/users>.
16:13:13 <dbooth> Rob: Had some conversation.  Working on the document that Tony started.  Trying to flesh that out.
16:13:17 <dbooth> David: URL for that document?
16:13:34 <dbooth> ACTION: Rob to get the document on the web
16:13:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-11 - Get the document on the web [on Rob Frost - due 2014-12-16].
16:13:49 <dbooth> ACTION: Tony and all to decide on a wiki for Term Info work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action09]
16:13:49 <trackbot> Error finding 'Tony'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2014/HCLS/track/users>.
16:13:55 <dbooth> PENDING
16:14:08 <dbooth> Topic: Minutes Approval
16:14:18 <dbooth> http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=ITS_RDF_Concall_Minutes_20141202
16:14:41 <dbooth> Unanimuously approved.
16:14:50 <Claude_Nanjo> https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/157514853
16:15:19 <dbooth> Topic: FHIR ontology approach
16:16:56 <Neda> Neda has joined #hcls
16:17:55 <dbooth> David: Suggest break-out calls on the technical details on FHIR ontologies.
16:17:59 <Zakim> -Paul_Knapp
16:18:06 <dbooth> Marc: Should also summarize
16:18:31 <dbooth> http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=FHIR_Ontology_Requirements&action=edit&redlink=1
16:20:04 <Neda> Can u please send the join.me link again?
16:20:15 <Zakim> +Paul_Knapp
16:20:28 <dbooth> David: That's the link for collecting requirements for FHIR ontology
16:21:04 <Zakim> -Paul_Knapp
16:21:46 <Zakim> +Paul_Knapp
16:23:49 <ericP> dbooth, if you want to knock off an action, i've changed action-4 to pending review
16:24:02 <dbooth> ericP, thanks!
16:25:01 <dbooth> Claude: Two ways to treat data types: primitives vs extensible primitives.
16:25:13 <dbooth> ... Extended primitives are objects.
16:25:47 <dbooth> ... Lloyd and thought that having two kinds of primitives, we might remove the simple primitive types and just using the object types.
16:26:09 <dbooth> LLoyd: For reasoning, you may want to make statements about whether a value is present.
16:26:43 <dbooth> ... More complex by taking the JSON approach: there's a simple property that contains the value, and an extension property that has the extension and other stuff.
16:27:23 <dbooth> ... In JSON that makes sense because you're primarily sharing data.  But in RDF you're going to be interesting in manipulating the data in SPARQL and things like that, so the common case is probably less important than easy query and manipulation.
16:29:10 <dbooth> Claude: Another question: how to distinguish FHIR extensions from other FHIR extensions?
16:29:31 <dbooth> ... One way is to put extensions in a separate namespace from FHIR Core.
16:29:59 <dbooth> ... Another approach is to derive from the "extension" property hierarchy.
16:30:38 <dbooth> ... Interesting challenges: suppose you have something in FHIR Core, and you want to extend it.  You couldn't with this approach.
16:31:08 <dbooth> ... You could say your extension is equivalent to the FHIR Core property though.
16:32:08 <dbooth> Lloyd: HL7 can define modifier extensions, though it might not.
16:32:34 <dbooth> ... Unlikely to do so, but possible.
16:32:53 <dbooth> Paul: There are modifier extensions, but not on datatypes.
16:34:00 <dbooth> David: Not sure that having modifierExtension as a kind of extension will give the proper non-monotonic semantics for modifier extensions.
16:34:08 <dbooth> Claude: Right, i'll get to that.
16:34:50 <dbooth> Claude: FHIR framework has an "Other" resource for extensions, which must be in an extension namespace.
16:35:39 <dbooth> Claude: Modifying extensions are problematic because they could potentially completely modify the semantics.
16:36:05 <dbooth> ... E.g., you could add a status=refuted to a condition, to indicate that a patient does NOT have that condition.
16:36:54 <dbooth> ... In essence you are making a statement that something is refuted.
16:37:55 <dbooth> ... How should it be interpreted?  One possibility: restriction classes, such as ConditionRefuted class  where status==refuted; and ConditionPresence class where status != refuted.
16:39:46 <dbooth> Paul: Two issues: 1. how to represent modifier extension.  2. How to know whether something is modified?
16:40:29 <dbooth> Lloyd: You either need to separate out things that are known to not have modifiers, versus things that have modifiers.
16:40:45 <dbooth> Paul: You cannot continue with reasoning if there is a modifier.
16:41:19 <dbooth> Lloyd: You're excluding any instances that contain unknown modifier extension.
16:41:27 <dbooth> David: This might be good to diagram!
16:42:08 <dbooth> Lloyd: I can create a class that is constrained to have not modifier extensions.
16:43:40 <dbooth> Claude: In this approach, would we only concern ourselves with modifier extensions?
16:44:27 <dbooth> Lloyd: Need to consider them in the base ontology, but you cannot reason against it.  Reasoning would be against a constrained ontology with classes that are constrained to have no unknown modifiers.
16:44:58 <dbooth> paul: Can the exclusion be on the basis of type, instead of cardinality (0 modifier extensions).
16:45:20 <dbooth> ... Say, "these are the modifiers that I understand, and all others must be excluded"
16:46:38 <dbooth> David: Scope of influence of a modifier extension is limited to the enclosing node and its descendents?
16:46:41 <dbooth> Lloyd: Right.
16:47:09 <dbooth> ... If you have a modifier on PatientPhoneNumber, it changes the meaning of the phone number, but not the DOB.
16:47:30 <dbooth> Paul: If I have a modifier at the root of Encounter ...
16:48:06 <dbooth> Lloyd: Then it changes everthing in it -- the Encounter and all of its descendents and all of the properties in it.
16:49:13 <dbooth> Paul: If you're looking at fine grained elements, you need to look at everything above as well for any modifiers.
16:49:36 <dbooth> Claude: If you extended FHIR core, then you'd have to represent it for every combination.  In the core ont, would we want something similar?
16:49:54 <dbooth> ... E.g., status=refuted.
16:50:21 <dbooth> Lloyd: You mean modifier elements, not modifying extensions.
16:50:51 <dbooth> ... Would need a way to handle the various combinations of modifier elements and give them all useful names.  That would free up the clutter in the ont.
16:51:00 <dbooth> ... Could be done, or could be done manually.
16:51:39 <dbooth> ... If there were combinations of modifier elements, you could define a supplemental ont that built on the base FHIR ont and allowed you to reason against them.
16:52:39 <dbooth> Claude: Can OWL better link terminology to the model?
16:52:56 <Marc_Twagirumukiza> sorry need to leave
16:53:07 <Marc_Twagirumukiza> I will catch up later on
16:53:19 <Zakim> -Marc
16:54:10 <dbooth> Claude: Possible to tie Coding to specific disorder in another ont using sameAs?
16:54:22 <dbooth> ... To link it to terminologies like SNOMED and LOINC.
16:54:46 <dbooth> Lloyd: The condition has a concept, which is a specialization of the concept represented by each of the codings.
16:55:09 <dbooth> ... You can then say that the coding concept is a subset of your desired concept.
16:58:33 <dbooth> Ingeborg: I got involved in this for mapping purposes.  Thinking of CDISC to LOINC.
16:59:56 <Zakim> -Dave_McComb
17:00:59 <Zakim> -Kerstin_Forsberg
17:01:53 <Zakim> -Neda
17:02:14 <egonw__> egonw__ has joined #HCLS
17:02:40 <Zakim> -Joshua_Phillips
17:02:47 <Zakim> -Joshua_Phillips.a
17:02:50 <Zakim> -Claude_Nanjo
17:02:51 <Zakim> -DBooth
17:02:52 <Zakim> -Lloyd_McKenzie
17:02:56 <Zakim> -rhausam
17:02:59 <Zakim> -Paul_Knapp
17:03:04 <dbooth> Lloyd: Suggest working on requirements for FHIR ont on the next call, along with Cecil's FHIR ont review.
17:03:10 <dbooth> Others: Good idea.
17:08:12 <Zakim> - +1.206.660.aadd
17:09:32 <dbooth> Chair: David_Booth and Paul_Knapp
17:09:43 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:09:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/09-hcls-minutes.html dbooth
17:13:12 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, vassil, in SW_HCLS()11:00AM
17:13:13 <Zakim> SW_HCLS()11:00AM has ended
17:13:13 <Zakim> Attendees were DBooth, Joshua_Phillips, +1.970.490.aaaa, Dave_McComb, Kerstin_Forsberg, Claude_Nanjo, rhausam, Lloyd_McKenzie, +1.608.271.aabb, +1.604.250.aacc, Paul_Knapp, vassil,
17:13:13 <Zakim> ... Marc, Neda, +1.206.660.aadd
17:14:58 <dbooth> Present: Claude_Nanjo Dave_McComb David_Booth Ingeborg Joshua_Phillips Kerstin_Forsberg Lloyd_McKenzie Marc_Twagirumukiza Neda Paul_Knapp Rob_Hausam Tony_Mallia_(IRC_only) Vassil
17:16:01 <dbooth> s/Vssil/Vassil/g
17:18:22 <dbooth> s/the above/getting Frederik Malfait to talk with us on PhUSE-FDA work/
17:19:49 <dbooth> s/get the document/get the High-level concept mapping document/
17:19:59 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:19:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/09-hcls-minutes.html dbooth
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20:38:16 <dbooth> dbooth has joined #hcls
21:36:14 <dbooth> dbooth has changed the topic to: HCLS
21:38:04 <dbooth> s/Topic: Approve minutes//
21:46:50 <dbooth> i|Suggest break-out|Claude's slides: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/10QQaOTuLxwqdPVW4sWncSiSRNhqNrpn3RAbdmPmrihs/edit#slide=id.p4
21:46:55 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
21:46:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/09-hcls-minutes.html dbooth
21:50:53 <dbooth> ADJOURNED
21:50:58 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
21:50:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/09-hcls-minutes.html dbooth
21:51:48 <dbooth> s/action06] -- PEND/action06] -- PENDING/
21:54:04 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
21:54:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/09-hcls-minutes.html dbooth
21:55:54 <dbooth> s/action06] -- PEND/action06] -- PENDING/
21:55:56 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
21:55:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/09-hcls-minutes.html dbooth