<trackbot> Date: 01 December 2014

<richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus

<richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Dec/0000.html

<scribe> scribe: jcraig

new meeting time.

RS: Thursday possibility

LW: Not ideal for me.

JC: Friday?

CS: Friday's problematic for Lisa (and EU callers)

RS: Need 1.5 hours for action items
... If people get their action items done.

JS: Propose move to 1.0 hour call on temporary basis

RS: Need to move to ARIA 2.0, too. Could work in parallel.

Supposed to have heartbeat by F2F.

MC: Heartbeat scheduled for next week.

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#substantive-changes-since-the-last-public-working-draft

MC: AccName going to FPWD, too.

Spec changelog http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#changelog

JC: change to 1 hour would help attendance.

RS and JS: I don't think that will make a difference

RS: Thursday at 12 Eastern (less meaty stuff first)

9AM Pacific

JN: So the real meeting starts 30 minutes in?

JS: Next meeting times (skipping Xmas and NYD)

<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to ask when this starts, and whether to clear the Monday slot yet

December 11th (next week) will be first Thursday time.

MC: use code #ARIA (Zakim code #2742)

JS: PF name changing too
... it's been a year

Publishing next week

MC: ARIA heartbeat, Core-AAM heartbeat, and AccName FPWD

December 11th publish ETA

starting pub checks this week

Action Items

<richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1440

action-1440?

<trackbot> action-1440 -- Joanmarie Diggs to landmarks section uses "region of page" in prose even though "region" is not a landmark -- due 2014-10-06 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1440

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#region

<bgaraventa1979> +q

RS: windows SRs treat region as landmark

JC: but they shouldn't

BG: some value in having region as landmarks

RS: section is being used as landmark, too

<Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to note that the HTML5 <section> element is "mapped" to role region.

MK: question of semantics (?) just because SRs provide navigation to regions doesn't make it a landmark
... It's fine for SRs to do this.
... JAWS provides special landmark behaviors for Main. I don't see need to call regions "landmarks" in order to achieve this navigation behavior

RS: Devs are confused by "landmark" terminolgy in AT

MK: this is why JAWS calls it a "region list" not a "landmark"

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-section

CS: Does HTML section element count as a region from the AT perspective

MK: Jaws counts unlabeled role=region as region, but not unlabeled <section>

CS: Purposeful or not?

JC: Seems like a logical heuristic

MK: If we required "region" to be lableled in order to be treated as navigational item, I think that would be an improvement

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#region

CS: I think that's a good change for both region and <section>

<clown> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/sections.html#the-section-element

action-1440

<trackbot> action-1440 -- Joanmarie Diggs to landmarks section uses "region of page" in prose even though "region" is not a landmark -- due 2014-10-06 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1440

RS: Is using "region" as prose a problem here?

<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to ask if Matt wants label required on region in spec, or is this an Authoring Guide note?

<clown> current text is: "Authors SHOULD ensure that a region has a heading referenced by aria-labelledby. This heading is provided by an instance of the standard host language heading element or an instance of an element with role heading that contains the heading text."

CS: Don't use role names as prose text

JC: "region of page" should be "portion of page"

CS: Should be a UA must, not author MUST

FE: Is <nav> mapped to region? (no, navigation)

Authors won't know to do something different

MK: UA MUST map regions if it's labeled, and MUST NOT map "region" (not including subroles) if it is not labeled

RS: also worried about live regions

MK: live region is not a "region"

RS: but this req would mean <div role=region aria-live=assertive> would not be mapped

MK: Okay. So the UA req would be to ignore the region role if not labeled.

JC: but not a req on subclass roles.

MK: Would require change to prose and mapping table

JG: Would this affect <section> elements or other region-like elements?

<LJWatson> HTML5.0 <section> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/sections.html#the-section-element

what if I put labelledby on role=article?

RS: should have a label on articles

MK: suggest leaving article out of this discussion.

<mattking> Proposed text: "A region is not a navigational landmark. Content authors SHOULD use standard document landmark roles for regions which are meant to be

<mattking> treated as landmarks."

<mattking> Current text: "When defining regions of a web page, authors are advised to consider using standard document landmark roles. If the definitions of these

<mattking> regions are inadequate, authors can use the region role and provide the appropriate accessible name."

MK: I think the current text is better

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#region

JC: I think this behavior would be fine if "landmark" were made an non-abstract role

legacy could be marked up as role="landmark region"

<jamesn> q to ask what is the point in region if we are not expectig AT to be able to navigate to them?

MK: still think labeled regions should be treated as regions

JC: I agree

MK: In addition to allowing region to be labeled, but we should also allow landmark as concrete role

<section> w/o label should be ignored

<clown> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/sections.html#the-section-element

so unlabeled region should also have role ignored

RS: people are using labeled region to get it to show up in JAWS landmark list

LW: What's the problem with using region as-is?

JC: Making region a landmark would also make grids and lists landmarks, so it's confusing from an authoring perspective and a taxonomy perspective.

<richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/sections.html#the-section-element

JC: pull this text out of region and add it to concrete landmark role: "When defining landmarks of a web page, authors are advised to consider using standard document landmark roles. If the definitions of these regions are inadequate, authors can use the [landmark] role and provide the appropriate accessible name."

<richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/sections.html#the-section-element

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/html-api-map/master/index.html#el-section

RS: There is no requirement to NOT map seciton in hte HTML mapping guide

<richardschwerdtfeger> region role (default - do not set), alert, alertdialog, application, contentinfo, dialog, document, log, main, marquee, presentation, search or status.

JC: So this is purely heuristic on the part of JAWS and NVDA

<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-section

<richardschwerdtfeger> Proposal: Change the landmark role to be concrete, not abstract.

+1

<fesch> +1

<joanie> +1

<mattking> +1

<richardschwerdtfeger> 1

<richardschwerdtfeger> +1

<mattking> if it has a label

JG: What If I use an unlabeled landmark?

<jnurthen> we should make an accessible name a MUST for a landmark

action-1440: Also make landmark concrete (not abstract) and add this to changelog

<trackbot> Notes added to action-1440 landmarks section uses "region of page" in prose even though "region" is not a landmark.

MK: could map <section> to region or none if not labeled, and map to "landmark" role if labeled

<richardschwerdtfeger> 1. we are changing the landmark role to be concrete

<richardschwerdtfeger> 2. we are not requiring the user agent to do anything special if landmark does not have a label

<richardschwerdtfeger> 3. we are saying that if a region does not have a label it will be exposed as a region

<richardschwerdtfeger> 4. if a region does have a label it is exposed as a landmark

JD: thought #4 was solved by #1

<clown> <div role="region" aria-label="it's matt's fault"> exposed as landrmark?

JC: I disagree with that, but fine if AT want to add labeled regions to a navigation list

MK: #3 will break some ATs (original problem JAWS was trying to solve)

<clown> 4. if a region does have a label it is treated as a landmark but is not exposed as a landmark

<clown> ?

<clown> 4. if a region does have a label it is treated as a landmark by AT, but is not exposed as a landmark

MK: Does anyone have a problem with ARIA spec implying "if a region does have a label it is [treated, not exposed] as a landmark"

<clown> 4. if a region does have a label it is treated as a landmark by AT, but is not exposed as a landmark by UA's

<richardschwerdtfeger> 1. landmark role to be concrete

<richardschwerdtfeger> 2. Recommend in role region that for regions intended to be landmarks that they use a role of landmark with label

<richardschwerdtfeger> 2. Recommend in role region that for regions intended to be landmarks that authors use a role of landmark with label

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140  of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30  
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/pout/put/
Succeeded: s/aking region a landmark would also make grids and lists landmarks/aking region a landmark would also make grids and lists landmarks, so it's confusing from an authoring perspective and a taxonomy perspective./
Succeeded: s/the Windows SRs/JAWS and NVDA/
Succeeded: s/not be abstract./be concrete./
Succeeded: s/be concrete./be concrete, not abstract./
Found Scribe: jcraig
Inferring ScribeNick: jcraig
Default Present: janina, Fred_Esch, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, LJWatson, Joanmarie_Diggs, Michael_Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Cynthia_Shelly, Jon_Gunderson, jcraig, Susann_Keohane, Stefan_Schnabel, James_Nurthen, Bryan_Garaventa, Matt_King
Present: janina Fred_Esch Rich_Schwerdtfeger LJWatson Joanmarie_Diggs Michael_Cooper Joseph_Scheuhammer Cynthia_Shelly Jon_Gunderson jcraig Susann_Keohane Stefan_Schnabel James_Nurthen Bryan_Garaventa Matt_King
Found Date: 01 Dec 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/12/01-aria-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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