element is "mapped" to role region. 18:29:04 q+ to note that the HTML5

element is "mapped" to role region. 18:29:57 RS: section is being used as landmark, too 18:30:01 ack mat 18:30:38 ack me 18:30:38 Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to note that the HTML5

element is "mapped" to role region. 18:30:51 MK: question of semantics (?) just because SRs provide navigation to regions doesn't make it a landmark 18:31:20 q? 18:31:27 MK: It's fine for SRs to do this. 18:33:13 MK: JAWS provides special landmark behaviors for Main. I don't see need to call regions "landmarks" in order to achieve this navigation behavior 18:33:51 RS: Devs are confused by "landmark" terminolgy in AT 18:34:07 MK: this is why JAWS calls it a "region list" not a "landmark" 18:35:01 http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-section 18:35:09 CS: Does HTML section element count as a region from the AT perspective 18:35:46 MK: Jaws counts unlabeled role=region as region, but not unlabeled

18:35:55 CS: Purposeful or not? 18:36:31 JC: Seems like a logical heuristic 18:37:17 MK: If we required "region" to be lableled in order to be treated as navigational item, I think that would be an improvement 18:37:28 http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#region 18:38:11 q+ to ask if Matt wants label required on region in spec, or is this an Authoring Guide note? 18:38:15 ack Cyns 18:38:21 ack cyn 18:38:45 CS: I think that's a good change for both region and

18:38:54 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/sections.html#the-section-element 18:39:00 action-1440 18:39:00 action-1440 -- Joanmarie Diggs to landmarks section uses "region of page" in prose even though "region" is not a landmark -- due 2014-10-06 -- OPEN 18:39:00 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1440 18:39:46 RS: Is using "region" as prose a problem here? 18:39:56 ack me 18:39:56 jcraig, you wanted to ask if Matt wants label required on region in spec, or is this an Authoring Guide note? 18:40:51 current text is: "Authors SHOULD ensure that a region has a heading referenced by aria-labelledby. This heading is provided by an instance of the standard host language heading element or an instance of an element with role heading that contains the heading text." 18:41:00 CS: Don't use role names as prose text 18:41:03 JC: "region of page" should be "portion of page" 18:41:20 CS: Should be a UA must, not author MUST 18:42:30 FE: Is

mapped to region? (no, navigation) 18:42:43 Authors won't know to do something different 18:43:40 MK: UA MUST map regions if it's labeled, and MUST NOT map "region" (not including subroles) if it is not labeled 18:44:41 RS: also worried about live regions 18:44:48 MK: live region is not a "region" 18:46:18 RS: but this req would mean

would not be mapped 18:47:22 MK: Okay. So the UA req would be to ignore the region role if not labeled. 18:47:46 q+ 18:48:01 JC: but not a req on subclass roles. 18:48:20 MK: Would require change to prose and mapping table 18:48:27 ack jo 18:48:29 q? 18:48:36 q+ to ask what the mappings are for role=regiion with and without a label 18:49:01 JG: Would this affect

elements or other region-like elements? 18:49:14 HTML5.0

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/sections.html#the-section-element 18:49:43 what if I pout labelledby on role=article? 18:49:51 s/pout/put/ 18:50:06 RS: should have a label on articles 18:50:25 MK: suggest leaving article out of this discussion. 18:50:43 Proposed text: "A region is not a navigational landmark. Content authors SHOULD use standard document landmark roles for regions which are meant to be 18:50:45 treated as landmarks." 18:51:15 Current text: "When defining regions of a web page, authors are advised to consider using standard document landmark roles. If the definitions of these 18:51:17 regions are inadequate, authors can use the region role and provide the appropriate accessible name." 18:51:25 MK: I think the current text is better 18:52:51 http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#region 18:56:50 JC: I think this behavior would be fine if "landmark" were made an non-abstract role 18:57:38 legacy could be marked up as role="landmark region" 18:59:33 q to ask what is the point in region if we are not expectig AT to be able to navigate to them? 19:00:00 MK: still think labeled regions should be treated as regions 19:00:04 JC: I agree 19:00:06 q+ To propose we delete the current text (last paragraph) under Region 19:00:22 q+ to ask what is the point in region if we are not expectig AT to be able to navigate to them? 19:00:47 -Cynthia_Shelly 19:01:09 MK: In addition to allowing region to be labeled, but we should also allow landmark as concrete role 19:01:34

w/o label should be ignored 19:02:15 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/sections.html#the-section-element 19:02:22 so unlabeled region should also have role ignored 19:03:01 jnurthen has joined #aria 19:03:50 RS: people are using labeled region to get it to show up in JAWS landmark list 19:04:10 q+ 19:04:31 LW: What's the problem with using region as-is? 19:05:00 JC: Making region a landmark would also make grids and lists landmarks 19:05:26 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/sections.html#the-section-element 19:06:04 JC: pull this text out of region and add it to concrete landmark role: "When defining landmarks of a web page, authors are advised to consider using standard document landmark roles. If the definitions of these regions are inadequate, authors can use the [landmark] role and provide the appropriate accessible name." 19:06:54 s/aking region a landmark would also make grids and lists landmarks/aking region a landmark would also make grids and lists landmarks, so it's confusing from an authoring perspective and a taxonomy perspective./ 19:07:04 -Susann_Keohane 19:08:25 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/sections.html#the-section-element 19:08:49 http://rawgit.com/w3c/html-api-map/master/index.html#el-section 19:08:52 RS: There is no requirement to NOT map seciton in hte HTML mapping guide 19:09:01 region role (default - do not set), alert, alertdialog, application, contentinfo, dialog, document, log, main, marquee, presentation, search or status. 19:09:11 JC: So this is purely heuristic on the part of the Windows SRs 19:09:29 s/the Windows SRs/JAWS and NVDA/ 19:10:07 http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-section 19:10:09 Proposal: Change the landmark role to not be abstract. 19:10:11 +1 19:10:22 +1 19:10:27 +1 19:10:38 s/not be abstract./be concrete./ 19:10:50 s/be concrete./be concrete, not abstract./ 19:10:56 +1 19:11:00 1 19:11:05 +1 19:11:06 if it has a label 19:11:30 JG: What If I use an unlabeled landmark? 19:11:50 we should make an accessible name a MUST for a landmark 19:14:48 action-1440: Also make landmark concrete (not abstract) and add this to changelog 19:14:48 Notes added to action-1440 landmarks section uses "region of page" in prose even though "region" is not a landmark. 19:18:02 MK: could map

to region or none if not labeled, and map to "landmark" role if labeled 19:22:49 1. we are changing the landmark role to be concrete 19:23:19 2. we are not requiring the user agent to do anything special if landmark does not have a label 19:23:45 3. we are saying that if a region does not have a label it will be exposed as a region 19:23:59 4. if a region does have a label it is exposed as a landmark 19:26:19 JD: thought #4 was solved by #1 19:26:50

exposed as landrmark? 19:28:18 JC: I disagree with that, but fine if AT want to add labeled regions to a navigation list 19:29:33 MK: #3 will break some ATs (original problem JAWS was trying to solve) 19:30:24 -Michael_Cooper 19:30:36 4. if a region does have a label it is treated as a landmark but is not exposed as a landmark 19:30:38 ? 19:30:55 4. if a region does have a label it is treated as a landmark by AT, but is not exposed as a landmark 19:31:09 MK: Does anyone have a problem with ARIA spec implying "if a region does have a label it is [treated, not exposed] as a landmark" 19:31:12 4. if a region does have a label it is treated as a landmark by AT, but is not exposed as a landmark by UA's 19:33:29 -Stefan_Schnabel 19:34:36 -LJWatson 19:35:32 1. landmark role to be concrete 19:36:02 2. Recommend in role region that for regions intended to be landmarks that they use a role of landmark with label 19:36:31 2. Recommend in role region that for regions intended to be landmarks that authors use a role of landmark with label 19:37:31 -jcraig 19:37:33 -James_Nurthen 19:37:33 zakim, bye 19:37:33 Zakim has left #aria 19:37:34 leaving. As of this point the attendees were janina, Fred_Esch, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, LJWatson, Joanmarie_Diggs, Michael_Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Cynthia_Shelly, Jon_Gunderson, 19:37:34 ... jcraig, Susann_Keohane, Stefan_Schnabel, James_Nurthen, Bryan_Garaventa, Matt_King 19:37:38 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:37:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/01-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger 20:45:50 clown has joined #aria 21:20:00 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria 22:02:38 clown has left #aria 22:03:30 jcraig_ has joined #aria 22:47:18 jcraig has joined #aria 23:38:20 jcraig has joined #aria