See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 01 December 2014
<richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Dec/0000.html
<scribe> scribe: jcraig
RS: Thursday possibility
LW: Not ideal for me.
JC: Friday?
CS: Friday's problematic for Lisa (and EU callers)
RS: Need 1.5 hours for action
items
... If people get their action items done.
JS: Propose move to 1.0 hour call on temporary basis
RS: Need to move to ARIA 2.0, too. Could work in parallel.
Supposed to have heartbeat by F2F.
MC: Heartbeat scheduled for next week.
MC: AccName going to FPWD, too.
Spec changelog http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#changelog
JC: change to 1 hour would help attendance.
RS and JS: I don't think that will make a difference
RS: Thursday at 12 Eastern (less meaty stuff first)
9AM Pacific
JN: So the real meeting starts 30 minutes in?
JS: Next meeting times (skipping Xmas and NYD)
<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to ask when this starts, and whether to clear the Monday slot yet
December 11th (next week) will be first Thursday time.
MC: use code #ARIA (Zakim code #2742)
JS: PF name changing too
... it's been a year
MC: ARIA heartbeat, Core-AAM heartbeat, and AccName FPWD
December 11th publish ETA
starting pub checks this week
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1440
action-1440?
<trackbot> action-1440 -- Joanmarie Diggs to landmarks section uses "region of page" in prose even though "region" is not a landmark -- due 2014-10-06 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1440
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#region
<bgaraventa1979> +q
RS: windows SRs treat region as landmark
JC: but they shouldn't
BG: some value in having region as landmarks
RS: section is being used as landmark, too
<Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to note that the HTML5 <section> element is "mapped" to role region.
MK: question of semantics (?)
just because SRs provide navigation to regions doesn't make it
a landmark
... It's fine for SRs to do this.
... JAWS provides special landmark behaviors for Main. I don't
see need to call regions "landmarks" in order to achieve this
navigation behavior
RS: Devs are confused by "landmark" terminolgy in AT
MK: this is why JAWS calls it a "region list" not a "landmark"
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-section
CS: Does HTML section element count as a region from the AT perspective
MK: Jaws counts unlabeled role=region as region, but not unlabeled <section>
CS: Purposeful or not?
JC: Seems like a logical heuristic
MK: If we required "region" to be lableled in order to be treated as navigational item, I think that would be an improvement
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#region
CS: I think that's a good change for both region and <section>
<clown> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/sections.html#the-section-element
action-1440
<trackbot> action-1440 -- Joanmarie Diggs to landmarks section uses "region of page" in prose even though "region" is not a landmark -- due 2014-10-06 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1440
RS: Is using "region" as prose a problem here?
<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to ask if Matt wants label required on region in spec, or is this an Authoring Guide note?
<clown> current text is: "Authors SHOULD ensure that a region has a heading referenced by aria-labelledby. This heading is provided by an instance of the standard host language heading element or an instance of an element with role heading that contains the heading text."
CS: Don't use role names as prose text
JC: "region of page" should be "portion of page"
CS: Should be a UA must, not author MUST
FE: Is <nav> mapped to region? (no, navigation)
Authors won't know to do something different
MK: UA MUST map regions if it's labeled, and MUST NOT map "region" (not including subroles) if it is not labeled
RS: also worried about live regions
MK: live region is not a "region"
RS: but this req would mean <div role=region aria-live=assertive> would not be mapped
MK: Okay. So the UA req would be to ignore the region role if not labeled.
JC: but not a req on subclass roles.
MK: Would require change to prose and mapping table
JG: Would this affect <section> elements or other region-like elements?
<LJWatson> HTML5.0 <section> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/sections.html#the-section-element
what if I put labelledby on role=article?
RS: should have a label on articles
MK: suggest leaving article out of this discussion.
<mattking> Proposed text: "A region is not a navigational landmark. Content authors SHOULD use standard document landmark roles for regions which are meant to be
<mattking> treated as landmarks."
<mattking> Current text: "When defining regions of a web page, authors are advised to consider using standard document landmark roles. If the definitions of these
<mattking> regions are inadequate, authors can use the region role and provide the appropriate accessible name."
MK: I think the current text is better
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#region
JC: I think this behavior would be fine if "landmark" were made an non-abstract role
legacy could be marked up as role="landmark region"
<jamesn> q to ask what is the point in region if we are not expectig AT to be able to navigate to them?
MK: still think labeled regions should be treated as regions
JC: I agree
MK: In addition to allowing region to be labeled, but we should also allow landmark as concrete role
<section> w/o label should be ignored
<clown> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/sections.html#the-section-element
so unlabeled region should also have role ignored
RS: people are using labeled region to get it to show up in JAWS landmark list
LW: What's the problem with using region as-is?
JC: Making region a landmark would also make grids and lists landmarks, so it's confusing from an authoring perspective and a taxonomy perspective.
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/sections.html#the-section-element
JC: pull this text out of region and add it to concrete landmark role: "When defining landmarks of a web page, authors are advised to consider using standard document landmark roles. If the definitions of these regions are inadequate, authors can use the [landmark] role and provide the appropriate accessible name."
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/sections.html#the-section-element
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/html-api-map/master/index.html#el-section
RS: There is no requirement to NOT map seciton in hte HTML mapping guide
<richardschwerdtfeger> region role (default - do not set), alert, alertdialog, application, contentinfo, dialog, document, log, main, marquee, presentation, search or status.
JC: So this is purely heuristic on the part of JAWS and NVDA
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-section
<richardschwerdtfeger> Proposal: Change the landmark role to be concrete, not abstract.
+1
<fesch> +1
<joanie> +1
<mattking> +1
<richardschwerdtfeger> 1
<richardschwerdtfeger> +1
<mattking> if it has a label
JG: What If I use an unlabeled landmark?
<jnurthen> we should make an accessible name a MUST for a landmark
action-1440: Also make landmark concrete (not abstract) and add this to changelog
<trackbot> Notes added to action-1440 landmarks section uses "region of page" in prose even though "region" is not a landmark.
MK: could map <section> to region or none if not labeled, and map to "landmark" role if labeled
<richardschwerdtfeger> 1. we are changing the landmark role to be concrete
<richardschwerdtfeger> 2. we are not requiring the user agent to do anything special if landmark does not have a label
<richardschwerdtfeger> 3. we are saying that if a region does not have a label it will be exposed as a region
<richardschwerdtfeger> 4. if a region does have a label it is exposed as a landmark
JD: thought #4 was solved by #1
<clown> <div role="region" aria-label="it's matt's fault"> exposed as landrmark?
JC: I disagree with that, but fine if AT want to add labeled regions to a navigation list
MK: #3 will break some ATs (original problem JAWS was trying to solve)
<clown> 4. if a region does have a label it is treated as a landmark but is not exposed as a landmark
<clown> ?
<clown> 4. if a region does have a label it is treated as a landmark by AT, but is not exposed as a landmark
MK: Does anyone have a problem with ARIA spec implying "if a region does have a label it is [treated, not exposed] as a landmark"
<clown> 4. if a region does have a label it is treated as a landmark by AT, but is not exposed as a landmark by UA's
<richardschwerdtfeger> 1. landmark role to be concrete
<richardschwerdtfeger> 2. Recommend in role region that for regions intended to be landmarks that they use a role of landmark with label
<richardschwerdtfeger> 2. Recommend in role region that for regions intended to be landmarks that authors use a role of landmark with label
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140 of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/pout/put/ Succeeded: s/aking region a landmark would also make grids and lists landmarks/aking region a landmark would also make grids and lists landmarks, so it's confusing from an authoring perspective and a taxonomy perspective./ Succeeded: s/the Windows SRs/JAWS and NVDA/ Succeeded: s/not be abstract./be concrete./ Succeeded: s/be concrete./be concrete, not abstract./ Found Scribe: jcraig Inferring ScribeNick: jcraig Default Present: janina, Fred_Esch, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, LJWatson, Joanmarie_Diggs, Michael_Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Cynthia_Shelly, Jon_Gunderson, jcraig, Susann_Keohane, Stefan_Schnabel, James_Nurthen, Bryan_Garaventa, Matt_King Present: janina Fred_Esch Rich_Schwerdtfeger LJWatson Joanmarie_Diggs Michael_Cooper Joseph_Scheuhammer Cynthia_Shelly Jon_Gunderson jcraig Susann_Keohane Stefan_Schnabel James_Nurthen Bryan_Garaventa Matt_King Found Date: 01 Dec 2014 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/12/01-aria-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]