See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 20 November 2014
<JF> scribe: JF
JS: Question for the group - suspec that most US based attendees will be eating turkey :-) - do we meet next Thursday?
[crickets]
JS: seems that most agree to miss next week thanks to Thanksgiving
RESOLUTION: no meeting week of Nov. 27th, 2014
<liam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2014Nov/0021.html
LQ: Shane and Liam met to review
and discuss the alt text doc. Agreed on some basic
principles
... recapping email message
JF: argues that the guidance is useful for more than just use in HTML
<Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to mention that steve committed to keep it in sync
SM: spoke with Steve who has agreed to keep the Note and HTML Spec in sync
LW: won't that make things complicated - 2 versions
LQ: agree, but Steve F has agreed to monitor that
SM: in other words this won't be diffiuclt for "us" but it will be for Steve F
PC: There was a Formal Objection
that this document contained normative text - Was removed when
the content was merged with HTML5
... if you attempt to put this on RC track then it would
liikely re-open the FO
LQ: worth noting that point 3 in the email has remaining issues
SF: agree that this should work in browsers. If things don't work in the browser, we need to know that - this is intended to be practical guidance
LQ: agrees
... asks 'what of techniqeus that DON'tWork'?
i.e. @title
SF: understanding that this (in
the HTML5 Rec) would also point to WAI Techniques
... need to work out how they work together
JS: believe it is reasonable to note current best practice (i.e. with @title - don't use it)
SF: there is a section that
already saya essentially that
... if you have an image with no @alt but does have @title it
will throw an error
... the decision was to keep the guidance in the HTML5 spec, as
it appears to be referenced frequently
LW: Content authors generally look at WCAG / WAI
LQ: case being made to keep both
SF: There is a reference to WAI guidance in the alt text doc, and in the HTML5 Rec
SM: agrees that the word Alternative does not show up in HTML5 Rec
LQ: seems we have a yes to
question 5
... when reading the HTML5 spec, noted that nothing there that
tells user-agents what to do with @alt
... (listing numerous questions)
... nothing appears clear in the HTML5 Rec
JS: also the issue of displaying alt text when images are turned off
LQ: (wondered aloud about filing bugs)
SF: there is lots there about how
the @alt should be rendered, but it is written in simplistic
language for people to understand
... there is a few hard requirements in the Spec, such as @alt
and @title cannot be rendered in the same way
... but in general, the way it is left to display is left to
the browser - whether that is good or bad that is part of the
HTML5 design philosophy
CS: to note that this behaviour stopped in IE7
SF: exactly, but that is also why
it was put in there
... however all the other rendering issues are left to the
browser
... could provide advice in the HTML5 Rec, but disagree with
putting it in the guidance Note
... so if we want to get rendering rules, then HTML5 is the
place, not the note
LQ: Item 7 was something that
wasn't too clear
... HTML5 seemed clearer (issue around security)
... this was an old phishing technique
... not that 'old"
SM: agree that Notes do not have nomrative requirements in them
so if we find a case where normative specs require more/better/revised content, then we must file a bug against the spec, not the Note
SF: Agree, but believe that we should also keep the 2 documents in sync - if something is added to HTML5, then Steve would file a bug against the Note, for further discussion, etc.
JS: this would also address Paul
C's concern - there is no intent of returning this document to
normative status
... instead we file bugs directly against the spec(s)
SM: will this cause issues if we add techniques for @longdesc in the Note?
SF: This will clearly not leave
everyone happy, but it will be 'legit'
... my goal was also to provide practical advice - pros and
cons - and that would remain in the notes
... witness the <details> guidance - which notes that not
supported in all browsers and needs polyfills
... so would take same approach with @longdesc
SM: not worried - we will all work together well. Need to address the few editorial changes that need to be made
SF: my view is taht the bulk is
good - always room for impovement - but it is workable
... for example, the advice on imagemap is sub-optimal, because
the support in browsers isn't good. Browser bugs have been
filed
... but AT handling of imagemap is not very good either
... so that would be a good place to start working (filing
bugs, tightening Note, etc.)
SM: asking if @longdesc content was ever in the document
SF: no. initially the document started with @alt, but then started to expand to include other ways, but never included @longdesc
JS: will take things as they go - thanks to Liam and Shane to getting this finished
JS: subteam is active, and are
processing comments on MAUR
... asked COGA TF to review, but all of the other comments have
either resolutions or work happening - chance that this will
finalize before year end
... Meeting times have switched from 10:00 AM Boston to 4:00 PM
Boston
... remains on the Monday
JS: Mark is not here today - will presume work is still happening, but have no specifics
PC: waiting for editors to
process a bug that Mark filed
... will follow up, but have not seen any progess over passt 7
days
JS: questons?
https://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:JFoliot/Issue194_Recap#Change_Proposals
<ShaneM> scribenick: ShaneM
JF: Various change proposals from
June 2012. There was a WBS survey but we didn't do anything
with it.
... some different ways to approach transcripts. child element.
@kind value of transcripe. @transcript for the video
element.
... talked to some people. least favorite was adding
@transcript.
... adding transcript value for @kind seems cleanest. clear
authoring experience
... some pushback that @kind is for timed documents. but really
a transcript is "timed"
... it is inferred though - not explicit.
... Introducing a transcript element had some traction. Sylvia
wrote something up. Needs work. Media subteam has it on the
todo list once the MAUR is done.
... But this is a big gap in HTML5 - there is no way to
associate a transcript to a video.
JS: Why couldn't a transcript have more time information?
JF: There are examples in the
wild where transcripts are timestamped.
... in the real world though, in production environments, the
definition of a transcript vs. captions vs. described video
tend to be a little loose.
... we don't have a hard definition at the W3C.
... we are seeing a thing called "the transcript" as a merger
of captioning and described video
... you end up with text blocks split screen with the video.
highlights the words as the dialog progresses.
... We should have better definitions of our terms.
DM: I am attracted to the
element. People have trouble meeting WCAAG with captioning
etc.
... seems useful and clean to have it as a subelement of
video.
<Zakim> liam, you wanted to ask relationship to TEI work
<liam> TEI transcriptions of speech - e.g. - http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/TS.html
liam: How is this related to the
TEI work on transcription?
... there is information that gets encoded via the TEI
work.
... the TEI work could end up going inside of a transcription
element.
... if would be nice if we coordinate with it.
JS: there is also the Apple usecase. You should be able to get a transcript off line, independent of the video.
JF: Using an element rather than
an attribute gives it more flexibility.
... you can always add attributes to elements. You can't add
attributes to attributes.
... It is possible to put the transcript element outside of the
video element
... should get it on the subteam agenda.
... and this sounds like a new extension spec.
JS: Yes, this is probably the way to proceed.
<JF> scribe: JF
JS: thanks everyoine for
attending. Befoe we go, any burning questions/comments?
... no meeting next week, next meeting on Dec. 4th
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140 of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Found Scribe: JF Inferring ScribeNick: JF Found ScribeNick: ShaneM Found Scribe: JF Inferring ScribeNick: JF ScribeNicks: ShaneM, JF Default Present: janina, Joanmarie_Diggs, ShaneM, Liam, JF, David_MacDonald, paulc, LJWatson, SteveF, Cynthia_Shelly Present: janina Joanmarie_Diggs ShaneM Liam JF David_MacDonald paulc LJWatson SteveF Cynthia_Shelly Found Date: 20 Nov 2014 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/11/20-html-a11y-minutes.html People with action items:[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]