15:41:46 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:41:46 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/20-html-a11y-irc
15:41:48 RRSAgent, make logs world
15:41:48 Zakim has joined #html-a11y
15:41:50 Zakim, this will be 2119
15:41:50 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 41 minutes ago
15:41:51 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:41:51 Date: 20 November 2014
15:42:10 agenda?
15:42:13 Chair: Janina
15:42:17 agenda+ Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:42:20 agenda+ No meeting next week--27 November?
15:42:22 agenda+ Alt Note Next Steps Discussion; Shane and Liam
15:42:25 agenda+ Media Subteam Update -- Janina, John, Shane
15:42:27 agenda+ Canvas 2D Update -- Mark
15:42:30 agenda+ Transcript Update -- John
15:42:32 agenda+ TF Work Items (HTML.Next)
15:42:35 agenda+ Other Business
15:42:37 agenda+ Identify Chair and Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:42:40 agenda+ be done
15:42:50 zakim, take up item 1
15:42:50 agendum 1. "Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List" taken up [from janina]
15:51:39 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has now started
15:51:46 +??P1
15:51:53 zakim, ??P1 is me
15:51:53 +janina; got it
15:58:37 ShaneM has left #html-a11y
15:58:59 ShaneM has joined #html-a11y
15:59:01 +Joanmarie_Diggs
15:59:10 Zakim, I am Joanmarie_Diggs
15:59:10 ok, joanie, I now associate you with Joanmarie_Diggs
15:59:54 +ShaneM
16:02:29 +Liam
16:03:00 +JF
16:03:45 JF has joined #html-a11y
16:04:39 zakim, who's here?
16:04:39 On the phone I see janina, Joanmarie_Diggs, ShaneM, Liam, JF
16:04:41 On IRC I see JF, ShaneM, Zakim, RRSAgent, newtron, chaals, cabanier, liam, janina, MarkS, sivoais, joanie, hober, trackbot
16:05:44 agenda?
16:06:06 scribe: JF
16:06:14 zakim, take up item 1
16:06:14 agendum 1. "Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List" taken up [from janina]
16:06:20 zakim, cloe item 1
16:06:20 I don't understand 'cloe item 1', JF
16:06:27 zakim, take up item 2
16:06:27 agendum 2. "No meeting next week--27 November?" taken up [from janina]
16:07:02 JS: Question for the group - suspec that most US based attendees will be eating turkey :-) - do we meet next Thursday?
16:07:04 +David_MacDonald
16:07:10 paulc has joined #html-a11y
16:07:17 [crickets]
16:07:31 zakim, what is the code?
16:07:31 the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), paulc
16:07:35 JS: seems that most agree to miss next week thanks to Thanksgiving
16:08:02 RESOLUTION: no meeting week of Nov. 27th, 2014
16:08:07 zakim, next item
16:08:07 agendum 1. "Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List" taken up [from janina]
16:08:18 zakim, close item 1
16:08:18 agendum 1, Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List, closed
16:08:20 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:08:20 3. Alt Note Next Steps Discussion; Shane and Liam [from janina]
16:08:24 +[Microsoft]
16:08:25 zakim, take up item 3
16:08:26 agendum 3. "Alt Note Next Steps Discussion; Shane and Liam" taken up [from janina]
16:08:30 zakim, [Microsoft] is me
16:08:30 +paulc; got it
16:08:36 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2014Nov/0021.html
16:08:40 +[IPcaller]
16:08:52 LJWatson has joined #html-a11y
16:09:12 zakim, who is on the phone
16:09:12 I don't understand 'who is on the phone', LJWatson
16:09:20 zakim, who is on the phone?
16:09:20 On the phone I see janina, Joanmarie_Diggs, ShaneM, Liam, JF, David_MacDonald, paulc, [IPcaller]
16:09:30 LQ: Shane and Liam met to review and discuss the alt text doc. Agreed on some basic principles
16:09:31 zakim, [IPcaller] is LJWatson
16:09:31 +LJWatson; got it
16:09:46 LQ: recapping email message
16:11:21 Q+
16:12:01 newtron has joined #html-a11y
16:12:22 q+ to mention that steve committed to keep it in sync
16:12:28 ack JF
16:12:28 ack JF
16:12:45 JF: argues that the guidance is useful for more than just use in HTML
16:12:54 ack ShaneM
16:12:54 ShaneM, you wanted to mention that steve committed to keep it in sync
16:13:24 SM: spoke with Steve who has agreed to keep the Note and HTML Spec in sync
16:13:34 LW: won't that make things complicated - 2 versions
16:13:46 LQ: agree, but Steve F has agreed to monitor that
16:13:55 q+
16:14:12 SM: in other words this won't be diffiuclt for "us" but it will be for Steve F
16:14:20 ack p
16:14:48 PC: There was a Formal Objection that this document contained normative text - Was removed when the content was merged with HTML5
16:16:09 PC: if you attempt to put this on RC track then it would liikely re-open the FO
16:16:38 LQ: worth noting that point 3 in the email has remaining issues
16:16:53 +[IPcaller]
16:17:29 zakim, [IPcaller] is SteveF
16:17:30 +SteveF; got it
16:17:40 IanPouncey has joined #html-a11y
16:18:15 SF: agree that this should work in browsers. If things don't work in the browser, we need to know that - this is intended to be practical guidance
16:18:34 LQ: agrees
16:18:58 LQ: asks 'what of techniqeus that DON'tWork'?
16:19:06 i.e. @title
16:20:09 SF: understanding that this (in the HTML5 Rec) would also point to WAI Techniques
16:20:20 SF: need to work out how they work together
16:21:04 JS: believe it is reasonable to note current best practice (i.e. with @title - don't use it)
16:21:16 SF: there is a section that already saya essentially that
16:21:42 SF: if you have an image with no @alt but does have @title it will throw an error
16:22:40 SF: the decision was to keep the guidance in the HTML5 spec, as it appears to be referenced frequently
16:22:57 LW: Content authors generally look at WCAG / WAI
16:23:14 LQ: case being made to keep both
16:23:35 SF: There is a reference to WAI guidance in the alt text doc, and in the HTML5 Rec
16:24:14 SM: agrees that the word Alternative does not show up in HTML5 Rec
16:24:46 LQ: seems we have a yes to question 5
16:25:30 LQ: when reading the HTML5 spec, noted that nothing there that tells user-agents what to do with @alt
16:25:40 LQ: (listing numerous questions)
16:25:58 LQ: nothing appears clear in the HTML5 Rec
16:26:14 JS: also the issue of displaying alt text when images are turned off
16:26:29 LQ: (wondered aloud about filing bugs)
16:26:35 +Cynthia_Shelly
16:27:01 SF: there is lots there about how the @alt should be rendered, but it is written in simplistic language for people to understand
16:27:48 SF: there is a few hard requirements in the Spec, such as @alt and @title cannot be rendered in the same way
16:28:22 ack Cyn
16:28:24 ack c
16:28:25 SF: but in general, the way it is left to display is left to the browser - whether that is good or bad that is part of the HTML5 design philosophy
16:28:38 CS: to note that this behaviour stopped in IE7
16:28:49 SF: exactly, but that is also why it was put in there
16:29:08 SF: however all the other rendering issues are left to the browser
16:29:32 SF: could provide advice in the HTML5 Rec, but disagree with putting it in the guidance Note
16:30:18 SF: so if we want to get rendering rules, then HTML5 is the place, not the note
16:30:43 LQ: Item 7 was something that wasn't too clear
16:31:13 LQ: HTML5 seemed clearer (issue around security)
16:32:02 LQ: this was an old phishing technique
16:32:40 LQ: not that 'old"
16:33:01 SM: agree that Notes do not have nomrative requirements in them
16:33:36 so if we find a case where normative specs require more/better/revised content, then we must file a bug against the spec, not the Note
16:34:23 SF: Agree, but believe that we should also keep the 2 documents in sync - if something is added to HTML5, then Steve would file a bug against the Note, for further discussion, etc.
16:34:57 JS: this would also address Paul C's concern - there is no intent of returning this document to normative status
16:35:11 JS: instead we file bugs directly against the spec(s)
16:35:49 SM: will this cause issues if we add techniques for @longdesc in the Note?
16:36:13 SF: This will clearly not leave everyone happy, but it will be 'legit'
16:36:42 SF: my goal was also to provide practical advice - pros and cons - and that would remain in the notes
16:37:09 SF: witness the guidance - which notes that not supported in all browsers and needs polyfills
16:37:23 SF: so would take same approach with @longdesc
16:38:37 SM: not worried - we will all work together well. Need to address the few editorial changes that need to be made
16:39:03 SF: my view is taht the bulk is good - always room for impovement - but it is workable
16:39:40 SF: for example, the advice on imagemap is sub-optimal, because the support in browsers isn't good. Browser bugs have been filed
16:39:52 SF: but AT handling of imagemap is not very good either
16:40:20 SF: so that would be a good place to start working (filing bugs, tightening Note, etc.)
16:40:43 SM: asking if @longdesc content was ever in the document
16:41:19 SF: no. initially the document started with @alt, but then started to expand to include other ways, but never included @longdesc
16:41:43 JS: will take things as they go - thanks to Liam and Shane to getting this finished
16:41:47 zakim, take up next item
16:41:47 agendum 4. "Media Subteam Update -- Janina, John, Shane" taken up [from janina]
16:41:52 -SteveF
16:42:11 JS: subteam is active, and are processing comments on MAUR
16:42:49 JS: asked COGA TF to review, but all of the other comments have either resolutions or work happening - chance that this will finalize before year end
16:43:27 JS: Meeting times have switched from 10:00 AM Boston to 4:00 PM Boston
16:43:38 JS: remains on the Monday
16:43:46 zakim, take up next item
16:43:46 agendum 5. "Canvas 2D Update -- Mark" taken up [from janina]
16:44:13 JS: Mark is not here today - will presume work is still happening, but have no specifics
16:44:25 PC: waiting for editors to process a bug that Mark filed
16:44:51 PC: will follow up, but have not seen any progess over passt 7 days
16:44:57 JS: questons?
16:45:03 zakim, take up nest item
16:45:03 I don't understand 'take up nest item', JF
16:45:10 zakim, take up next item
16:45:10 agendum 6. "Transcript Update -- John" taken up [from janina]
16:45:51 https://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:JFoliot/Issue194_Recap#Change_Proposals
16:45:52 scribenick: ShaneM
16:46:30 JF: Various change proposals from June 2012. There was a WBS survey but we didn't do anything with it.
16:47:02 ... some different ways to approach transcripts. child element. @kind value of transcripe. @transcript for the video element.
16:47:18 ... talked to some people. least favorite was adding @transcript.
16:47:34 ... adding transcript value for @kind seems cleanest. clear authoring experience
16:48:16 ... some pushback that @kind is for timed documents. but really a transcript is "timed"
16:48:25 ... it is inferred though - not explicit.
16:49:05 ... Introducing a transcript element had some traction. Sylvia wrote something up. Needs work. Media subteam has it on the todo list once the MAUR is done.
16:49:17 ... But this is a big gap in HTML5 - there is no way to associate a transcript to a video.
16:49:42 David has joined #html-a11y
16:49:55 JS: Why couldn't a transcript have more time information?
16:50:15 JF: There are examples in the wild where transcripts are timestamped.
16:50:40 ... in the real world though, in production environments, the definition of a transcript vs. captions vs. described video tend to be a little loose.
16:50:48 ... we don't have a hard definition at the W3C.
16:51:02 q+
16:51:15 ... we are seeing a thing called "the transcript" as a merger of captioning and described video
16:51:23 q?
16:51:39 ... you end up with text blocks split screen with the video. highlights the words as the dialog progresses.
16:51:54 ... We should have better definitions of our terms.
16:51:59 ack d
16:52:26 DM: I am attracted to the element. People have trouble meeting WCAAG with captioning etc.
16:52:26 Q+
16:52:47 ... seems useful and clean to have it as a subelement of video.
16:52:53 q?
16:52:57 ack l
16:52:57 liam, you wanted to ask relationship to TEI work
16:53:00 TEI transcriptions of speech - e.g. - http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/TS.html
16:53:19 liam: How is this related to the TEI work on transcription?
16:54:14 ... there is information that gets encoded via the TEI work.
16:54:29 ... the TEI work could end up going inside of a transcription element.
16:54:38 ... if would be nice if we coordinate with it.
16:55:05 JS: there is also the Apple usecase. You should be able to get a transcript off line, independent of the video.
16:55:10 ack l
16:55:11 ack j
16:55:19 JF: Using an element rather than an attribute gives it more flexibility.
16:55:40 ... you can always add attributes to elements. You can't add attributes to attributes.
16:56:32 ... It is possible to put the transcript element outside of the video element
16:57:18 ... should get it on the subteam agenda.
16:57:30 .. and this sounds like a new extension spec.
16:57:36 JS: Yes, this is probably the way to proceed.
16:57:39 scribe: JF
16:57:56 JS: thanks everyoine for attending. Befoe we go, any burning questions/comments?
16:57:57 -Cynthia_Shelly
16:58:13 -LJWatson
16:58:16 -janina
16:58:17 -Joanmarie_Diggs
16:58:21 -David_MacDonald
16:58:21 -Liam
16:58:23 -JF
16:58:40 -ShaneM
16:58:47 -paulc
16:58:48 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has ended
16:58:48 Attendees were janina, Joanmarie_Diggs, ShaneM, Liam, JF, David_MacDonald, paulc, LJWatson, SteveF, Cynthia_Shelly
16:59:13 JS: no meeting next week, next meeting on Dec. 4th
16:59:14 rrsagent, make logs public
16:59:23 rrsagent, draft minutes
16:59:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/20-html-a11y-minutes.html JF
16:59:57 zakim, please part
16:59:57 Zakim has left #html-a11y
17:00:06 rrsagent, please part
17:00:06 I see no action items