IRC log of html-a11y on 2014-11-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:41:46 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:41:46 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/20-html-a11y-irc
15:41:48 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:41:48 [Zakim]
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15:41:50 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
15:41:50 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 41 minutes ago
15:41:51 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:41:51 [trackbot]
Date: 20 November 2014
15:42:10 [janina]
agenda?
15:42:13 [janina]
Chair: Janina
15:42:17 [janina]
agenda+ Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:42:20 [janina]
agenda+ No meeting next week--27 November?
15:42:22 [janina]
agenda+ Alt Note Next Steps Discussion; Shane and Liam
15:42:25 [janina]
agenda+ Media Subteam Update -- Janina, John, Shane
15:42:27 [janina]
agenda+ Canvas 2D Update -- Mark
15:42:30 [janina]
agenda+ Transcript Update -- John
15:42:32 [janina]
agenda+ TF Work Items (HTML.Next)
15:42:35 [janina]
agenda+ Other Business
15:42:37 [janina]
agenda+ Identify Chair and Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:42:40 [janina]
agenda+ be done
15:42:50 [janina]
zakim, take up item 1
15:42:50 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List" taken up [from janina]
15:51:39 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has now started
15:51:46 [Zakim]
+??P1
15:51:53 [janina]
zakim, ??P1 is me
15:51:53 [Zakim]
+janina; got it
15:58:37 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has left #html-a11y
15:58:59 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has joined #html-a11y
15:59:01 [Zakim]
+Joanmarie_Diggs
15:59:10 [joanie]
Zakim, I am Joanmarie_Diggs
15:59:10 [Zakim]
ok, joanie, I now associate you with Joanmarie_Diggs
15:59:54 [Zakim]
+ShaneM
16:02:29 [Zakim]
+Liam
16:03:00 [Zakim]
+JF
16:03:45 [JF]
JF has joined #html-a11y
16:04:39 [JF]
zakim, who's here?
16:04:39 [Zakim]
On the phone I see janina, Joanmarie_Diggs, ShaneM, Liam, JF
16:04:41 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JF, ShaneM, Zakim, RRSAgent, newtron, chaals, cabanier, liam, janina, MarkS, sivoais, joanie, hober, trackbot
16:05:44 [JF]
agenda?
16:06:06 [JF]
scribe: JF
16:06:14 [JF]
zakim, take up item 1
16:06:14 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List" taken up [from janina]
16:06:20 [JF]
zakim, cloe item 1
16:06:20 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'cloe item 1', JF
16:06:27 [JF]
zakim, take up item 2
16:06:27 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "No meeting next week--27 November?" taken up [from janina]
16:07:02 [JF]
JS: Question for the group - suspec that most US based attendees will be eating turkey :-) - do we meet next Thursday?
16:07:04 [Zakim]
+David_MacDonald
16:07:10 [paulc]
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16:07:17 [JF]
[crickets]
16:07:31 [paulc]
zakim, what is the code?
16:07:31 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), paulc
16:07:35 [JF]
JS: seems that most agree to miss next week thanks to Thanksgiving
16:08:02 [JF]
RESOLUTION: no meeting week of Nov. 27th, 2014
16:08:07 [JF]
zakim, next item
16:08:07 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List" taken up [from janina]
16:08:18 [JF]
zakim, close item 1
16:08:18 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List, closed
16:08:20 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:08:20 [Zakim]
3. Alt Note Next Steps Discussion; Shane and Liam [from janina]
16:08:24 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:08:25 [JF]
zakim, take up item 3
16:08:26 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Alt Note Next Steps Discussion; Shane and Liam" taken up [from janina]
16:08:30 [paulc]
zakim, [Microsoft] is me
16:08:30 [Zakim]
+paulc; got it
16:08:36 [liam]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2014Nov/0021.html
16:08:40 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:08:52 [LJWatson]
LJWatson has joined #html-a11y
16:09:12 [LJWatson]
zakim, who is on the phone
16:09:12 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the phone', LJWatson
16:09:20 [LJWatson]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:09:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see janina, Joanmarie_Diggs, ShaneM, Liam, JF, David_MacDonald, paulc, [IPcaller]
16:09:30 [JF]
LQ: Shane and Liam met to review and discuss the alt text doc. Agreed on some basic principles
16:09:31 [LJWatson]
zakim, [IPcaller] is LJWatson
16:09:31 [Zakim]
+LJWatson; got it
16:09:46 [JF]
LQ: recapping email message
16:11:21 [JF]
Q+
16:12:01 [newtron]
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16:12:22 [ShaneM]
q+ to mention that steve committed to keep it in sync
16:12:28 [JF]
ack JF
16:12:28 [ShaneM]
ack JF
16:12:45 [JF]
JF: argues that the guidance is useful for more than just use in HTML
16:12:54 [JF]
ack ShaneM
16:12:54 [Zakim]
ShaneM, you wanted to mention that steve committed to keep it in sync
16:13:24 [JF]
SM: spoke with Steve who has agreed to keep the Note and HTML Spec in sync
16:13:34 [JF]
LW: won't that make things complicated - 2 versions
16:13:46 [JF]
LQ: agree, but Steve F has agreed to monitor that
16:13:55 [paulc]
q+
16:14:12 [JF]
SM: in other words this won't be diffiuclt for "us" but it will be for Steve F
16:14:20 [janina]
ack p
16:14:48 [JF]
PC: There was a Formal Objection that this document contained normative text - Was removed when the content was merged with HTML5
16:16:09 [JF]
PC: if you attempt to put this on RC track then it would liikely re-open the FO
16:16:38 [JF]
LQ: worth noting that point 3 in the email has remaining issues
16:16:53 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:17:29 [JF]
zakim, [IPcaller] is SteveF
16:17:30 [Zakim]
+SteveF; got it
16:17:40 [IanPouncey]
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16:18:15 [JF]
SF: agree that this should work in browsers. If things don't work in the browser, we need to know that - this is intended to be practical guidance
16:18:34 [JF]
LQ: agrees
16:18:58 [JF]
LQ: asks 'what of techniqeus that DON'tWork'?
16:19:06 [JF]
i.e. @title
16:20:09 [JF]
SF: understanding that this (in the HTML5 Rec) would also point to WAI Techniques
16:20:20 [JF]
SF: need to work out how they work together
16:21:04 [JF]
JS: believe it is reasonable to note current best practice (i.e. with @title - don't use it)
16:21:16 [JF]
SF: there is a section that already saya essentially that
16:21:42 [JF]
SF: if you have an image with no @alt but does have @title it will throw an error
16:22:40 [JF]
SF: the decision was to keep the guidance in the HTML5 spec, as it appears to be referenced frequently
16:22:57 [JF]
LW: Content authors generally look at WCAG / WAI
16:23:14 [JF]
LQ: case being made to keep both
16:23:35 [JF]
SF: There is a reference to WAI guidance in the alt text doc, and in the HTML5 Rec
16:24:14 [JF]
SM: agrees that the word Alternative does not show up in HTML5 Rec
16:24:46 [JF]
LQ: seems we have a yes to question 5
16:25:30 [JF]
LQ: when reading the HTML5 spec, noted that nothing there that tells user-agents what to do with @alt
16:25:40 [JF]
LQ: (listing numerous questions)
16:25:58 [JF]
LQ: nothing appears clear in the HTML5 Rec
16:26:14 [JF]
JS: also the issue of displaying alt text when images are turned off
16:26:29 [JF]
LQ: (wondered aloud about filing bugs)
16:26:35 [Zakim]
+Cynthia_Shelly
16:27:01 [JF]
SF: there is lots there about how the @alt should be rendered, but it is written in simplistic language for people to understand
16:27:48 [JF]
SF: there is a few hard requirements in the Spec, such as @alt and @title cannot be rendered in the same way
16:28:22 [ShaneM]
ack Cyn
16:28:24 [janina]
ack c
16:28:25 [JF]
SF: but in general, the way it is left to display is left to the browser - whether that is good or bad that is part of the HTML5 design philosophy
16:28:38 [JF]
CS: to note that this behaviour stopped in IE7
16:28:49 [JF]
SF: exactly, but that is also why it was put in there
16:29:08 [JF]
SF: however all the other rendering issues are left to the browser
16:29:32 [JF]
SF: could provide advice in the HTML5 Rec, but disagree with putting it in the guidance Note
16:30:18 [JF]
SF: so if we want to get rendering rules, then HTML5 is the place, not the note
16:30:43 [JF]
LQ: Item 7 was something that wasn't too clear
16:31:13 [JF]
LQ: HTML5 seemed clearer (issue around security)
16:32:02 [JF]
LQ: this was an old phishing technique
16:32:40 [JF]
LQ: not that 'old"
16:33:01 [JF]
SM: agree that Notes do not have nomrative requirements in them
16:33:36 [JF]
so if we find a case where normative specs require more/better/revised content, then we must file a bug against the spec, not the Note
16:34:23 [JF]
SF: Agree, but believe that we should also keep the 2 documents in sync - if something is added to HTML5, then Steve would file a bug against the Note, for further discussion, etc.
16:34:57 [JF]
JS: this would also address Paul C's concern - there is no intent of returning this document to normative status
16:35:11 [JF]
JS: instead we file bugs directly against the spec(s)
16:35:49 [JF]
SM: will this cause issues if we add techniques for @longdesc in the Note?
16:36:13 [JF]
SF: This will clearly not leave everyone happy, but it will be 'legit'
16:36:42 [JF]
SF: my goal was also to provide practical advice - pros and cons - and that would remain in the notes
16:37:09 [JF]
SF: witness the <details> guidance - which notes that not supported in all browsers and needs polyfills
16:37:23 [JF]
SF: so would take same approach with @longdesc
16:38:37 [JF]
SM: not worried - we will all work together well. Need to address the few editorial changes that need to be made
16:39:03 [JF]
SF: my view is taht the bulk is good - always room for impovement - but it is workable
16:39:40 [JF]
SF: for example, the advice on imagemap is sub-optimal, because the support in browsers isn't good. Browser bugs have been filed
16:39:52 [JF]
SF: but AT handling of imagemap is not very good either
16:40:20 [JF]
SF: so that would be a good place to start working (filing bugs, tightening Note, etc.)
16:40:43 [JF]
SM: asking if @longdesc content was ever in the document
16:41:19 [JF]
SF: no. initially the document started with @alt, but then started to expand to include other ways, but never included @longdesc
16:41:43 [JF]
JS: will take things as they go - thanks to Liam and Shane to getting this finished
16:41:47 [JF]
zakim, take up next item
16:41:47 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Media Subteam Update -- Janina, John, Shane" taken up [from janina]
16:41:52 [Zakim]
-SteveF
16:42:11 [JF]
JS: subteam is active, and are processing comments on MAUR
16:42:49 [JF]
JS: asked COGA TF to review, but all of the other comments have either resolutions or work happening - chance that this will finalize before year end
16:43:27 [JF]
JS: Meeting times have switched from 10:00 AM Boston to 4:00 PM Boston
16:43:38 [JF]
JS: remains on the Monday
16:43:46 [JF]
zakim, take up next item
16:43:46 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Canvas 2D Update -- Mark" taken up [from janina]
16:44:13 [JF]
JS: Mark is not here today - will presume work is still happening, but have no specifics
16:44:25 [JF]
PC: waiting for editors to process a bug that Mark filed
16:44:51 [JF]
PC: will follow up, but have not seen any progess over passt 7 days
16:44:57 [JF]
JS: questons?
16:45:03 [JF]
zakim, take up nest item
16:45:03 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'take up nest item', JF
16:45:10 [JF]
zakim, take up next item
16:45:10 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Transcript Update -- John" taken up [from janina]
16:45:51 [JF]
https://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:JFoliot/Issue194_Recap#Change_Proposals
16:45:52 [ShaneM]
scribenick: ShaneM
16:46:30 [ShaneM]
JF: Various change proposals from June 2012. There was a WBS survey but we didn't do anything with it.
16:47:02 [ShaneM]
... some different ways to approach transcripts. child element. @kind value of transcripe. @transcript for the video element.
16:47:18 [ShaneM]
... talked to some people. least favorite was adding @transcript.
16:47:34 [ShaneM]
... adding transcript value for @kind seems cleanest. clear authoring experience
16:48:16 [ShaneM]
... some pushback that @kind is for timed documents. but really a transcript is "timed"
16:48:25 [ShaneM]
... it is inferred though - not explicit.
16:49:05 [ShaneM]
... Introducing a transcript element had some traction. Sylvia wrote something up. Needs work. Media subteam has it on the todo list once the MAUR is done.
16:49:17 [ShaneM]
... But this is a big gap in HTML5 - there is no way to associate a transcript to a video.
16:49:42 [David]
David has joined #html-a11y
16:49:55 [ShaneM]
JS: Why couldn't a transcript have more time information?
16:50:15 [ShaneM]
JF: There are examples in the wild where transcripts are timestamped.
16:50:40 [ShaneM]
... in the real world though, in production environments, the definition of a transcript vs. captions vs. described video tend to be a little loose.
16:50:48 [ShaneM]
... we don't have a hard definition at the W3C.
16:51:02 [David]
q+
16:51:15 [ShaneM]
... we are seeing a thing called "the transcript" as a merger of captioning and described video
16:51:23 [janina]
q?
16:51:39 [ShaneM]
... you end up with text blocks split screen with the video. highlights the words as the dialog progresses.
16:51:54 [ShaneM]
... We should have better definitions of our terms.
16:51:59 [janina]
ack d
16:52:26 [ShaneM]
DM: I am attracted to the element. People have trouble meeting WCAAG with captioning etc.
16:52:26 [JF]
Q+
16:52:47 [ShaneM]
... seems useful and clean to have it as a subelement of video.
16:52:53 [janina]
q?
16:52:57 [janina]
ack l
16:52:57 [Zakim]
liam, you wanted to ask relationship to TEI work
16:53:00 [liam]
TEI transcriptions of speech - e.g. - http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/TS.html
16:53:19 [ShaneM]
liam: How is this related to the TEI work on transcription?
16:54:14 [ShaneM]
... there is information that gets encoded via the TEI work.
16:54:29 [ShaneM]
... the TEI work could end up going inside of a transcription element.
16:54:38 [ShaneM]
... if would be nice if we coordinate with it.
16:55:05 [ShaneM]
JS: there is also the Apple usecase. You should be able to get a transcript off line, independent of the video.
16:55:10 [janina]
ack l
16:55:11 [janina]
ack j
16:55:19 [ShaneM]
JF: Using an element rather than an attribute gives it more flexibility.
16:55:40 [ShaneM]
... you can always add attributes to elements. You can't add attributes to attributes.
16:56:32 [ShaneM]
... It is possible to put the transcript element outside of the video element
16:57:18 [ShaneM]
... should get it on the subteam agenda.
16:57:30 [ShaneM]
.. and this sounds like a new extension spec.
16:57:36 [ShaneM]
JS: Yes, this is probably the way to proceed.
16:57:39 [JF]
scribe: JF
16:57:56 [JF]
JS: thanks everyoine for attending. Befoe we go, any burning questions/comments?
16:57:57 [Zakim]
-Cynthia_Shelly
16:58:13 [Zakim]
-LJWatson
16:58:16 [Zakim]
-janina
16:58:17 [Zakim]
-Joanmarie_Diggs
16:58:21 [Zakim]
-David_MacDonald
16:58:21 [Zakim]
-Liam
16:58:23 [Zakim]
-JF
16:58:40 [Zakim]
-ShaneM
16:58:47 [Zakim]
-paulc
16:58:48 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has ended
16:58:48 [Zakim]
Attendees were janina, Joanmarie_Diggs, ShaneM, Liam, JF, David_MacDonald, paulc, LJWatson, SteveF, Cynthia_Shelly
16:59:13 [JF]
JS: no meeting next week, next meeting on Dec. 4th
16:59:14 [JF]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:59:23 [JF]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:59:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/20-html-a11y-minutes.html JF
16:59:57 [JF]
zakim, please part
16:59:57 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-a11y
17:00:06 [JF]
rrsagent, please part
17:00:06 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items