DPUB IG F2F meeting - second day, 2014-10-31

STEM

tzviya: no real agenda for STEM, want to bring focus to STEM

peter: update - wrapped up all but 1 interview
... … talked to 4 or 5 people [various names] …
... … very productive, will start on the email interview/questionaire now
... … will set up a meeting of the actual task force
... … lots of advanced layout features people are looking for
... … extremes: epub heavilly adjusts to reader vs advanced layout
... … surprised that there was very little STEM specific tech that people need and should be standardized
... … there is math which is ahead of the curve
... … for every else there are people stuck in proprietary tech
... … not a lot of knowledge about what is needed to get it in the web

tzviya: Might just be that people don’t know what is needed
... … maybe people just haven’t explored these issues, or have they tried and given up?

peter: not a lot of giving up. Lot of focus on the print side, so limits what you can do

bill: asking about pub formats in a traditional sense, or using the web for science in general?
... … in science it is taken for granted that the web is used

bill: .. reaction to comment about reflowable. Using tools is common and not a problem, reflowable content is another story.

dkaplan: what is an epub? what is a publication?

bill: yes, keep cycling back to that
... … may not be relevant

dkaplan: is there a STEM group at W3c?

ivan: no
... there has been discussion in the last few months about publications of scholarly data

zviya: wants to make sure we can actually accomplish something. We could cover the entire web, but that is impossible. Please let’s not try

tzviya: … peter, can we get some next steps?

tim: there is a set of concerns about traditional pubs moving to the web that PDF can’t do
... … for instance, in math it is not just data, for example a graph you can manipualte
... … or a 3d model

bill: already done routinely

tim: yes, but non-standard

tzviya: do you want to standardize the data or the method or presenting the data?
... … data we can address, not so much the 3d modelling

bill: why can’t we do the modelling
... … our job is not to solve the problems. If we are focusing on STEM we can’t say 3D modelling is out of scope

tim: Dichotomy isn’t unreasonable

ivan: 2 independent things
... … 1) there are lots of problems with PDF. Lots of things STEM wants to do and PDF doesn’t offer them
... … if this group came up with lists of areas where STEM has problems with PDF, would be great
... … offers some names for Peter (ask him for them)
... … 2) for the data, trying to find out what are the missing bits is something that is interesting and important
... … interesting because Don Brutzman joined
... … have tried to bring 3d modelling to the web for years in web3d group
... … w3c pushed away, not mature enough, may not be enough interest
... … if we push for it (on web, in epub), brings it into scope and makes it interesting to w3c
... … may be other interesting formats
... … whether w3c can handle it, we can’t decide, but we can identify issues with current specs (for example can html5 handle 3d like it handles svg)

peter: clarifying that talking to real publishers, that doesn’t seem to be a place we can find solutions
... … static rendering eliminates need for custom rendering
... … do think the idea of a STEM group or community to bring together interested parties might be a good outcome from the task force

<Bill_Kasdorf> +1

peter: … maybe the perfect tool is a couple of CG, might be worthwhile to bring these people together
... … help publishers formulate the solutions they need (want to do interesting things, but don’t know how)

ivan: only concern is work duplication

<ivan> Force11 - http://www.force11.org

ivan: … is on the board at force11, looking at these issues, they are active
... … force11 doesn’t want to work alone
... … once we know what is needed, we can reach out to these groups
... … The interviews you had were with publishers
... … the big publishers are very conservative, so maybe you need to have interviews with people in the scholarly community

<tzviya> +1

ivan: … there are very few scholarly publishers in anything other than PDF
... … hard to break the circle, want ot hear from both sides

bill: the first interviews were with those people. We do have that input.

peter: scholars annoyed with current tech, give me anything to get away from static rendering

tim: You ask scholars what they need in digital media, and they ask for the wrong thing, or underestimate
... … got best results talking to PhD students. Learn a lot about their fears.
... … cautious, want to protect their careers

peter: Seems like a CG to bring people together would be good

dkaplan: 2 deliverables: think STEM is a larger issues than DPUB (tell this to W3c)
... w3c should look into this for a STEM group
... … from dpub, we have a list of things that STEM people want in their publications that they can’t do
... … hand this research over to w3c/new group
... … we could be stuck just looking at one issue in this group for years

<ivan> Maryann Martone, maryann@ncmir.ucsd.edu

ivan: 2 additional things: Peter - you could get an interview with Maryann Martone (maryann@ncmir.ucsd.edu)
... … I don’t want to do it, you should
... … other thing: to document what dkaplan just said is useful
... … but don’t get your hope up
... … things may have already slipped out of w3c, so we may be too late
... … the list is very useful

peter: to clarify, biggest problem is when you say Maryann Martone has good insights from our point of view, my problem is “what is out point of view”?

ivan: what are issues scholars have with PDF? Or traditional publications?
... … she may have ideas and further pointers for that

bill: the issues we are talking about today should go in the questionnaire
... … that’s what the interviews are for

tzviya: At what point will we get data back from the questionnaire? This group is chartered for just one more year

bill: task force strategy was to do interviews to create the larger, more structured questionnaire

peter: Timing, send out Q in Nov, then give people to end of year
... … then write up in Jan

ivan: can you come to conference in Jan?

peter: I will try

tzviya: timing: get Q out in early Nov, give them 1 or 2 weeks, get all results by end of Nov.
... … then process data in 2 or 4 weeks, when have it all ready for force11 conf
... … we end in less than 1 year, so need to have discrete action items ASAP
... does that timeline work?

peter: we will make it work

bill: we can find a volunteer to help

peter: surprising thing was authoring on and for the web topic
... less STEM, but using the web as an authoring platform

<Bill_Kasdorf> +1

peter: … there is movement away from xml
... … people data mine html anyway, so why do we make xml?
... … slow transition away from PDF to web
... … search - no one does it because there are no semantically interesting formats
... … mathml is ahead of the curve, but everyone else there are no tools it is an abyss
... … annotation work is appreciated
... … metadata - there is a lot of detailed metadata, but it seems too hard to use, too hand crafted
... … peer review - this is publishing in general. How to organize it on the web, then how do we deal with STEM specific content (for example the data)
... … and finally data. How to deal with data sets, make them available, etc

tzviya: talk about AI

action pkra to send STEM survey in Nov

<trackbot> Created ACTION-34 - Send stem survey in nov [on Peter Krautzberger - due 2014-11-07].

tzviya: who is on taskforce?

ivan: reach out to Don

action tzviya to reach out to Don

<trackbot> Created ACTION-35 - Reach out to don [on Tzviya Siegman - due 2014-11-07].

action pkra to call meeting of taskforce (maybe on this Monday)

<trackbot> Created ACTION-36 - Call meeting of taskforce (maybe on this monday) [on Peter Krautzberger - due 2014-11-07].

tzviya: Need to document the results. Ivan will lead the process through respec

peter: have started to work on a proper respec document

markus: have a tangent question
... … ivan said there was a 3d standards war?

ivan: webgl is low level. If you want complicated 3d models, doing it in webgl is tedious
... … x3d consortium has an xml spec for modelling (very old school)
... .. there is another group that has a similar language, but closer to the web (use CSS, DOM, etc)

markus: do they both use webgl?

ivan: yes, underneath they both use webgl
... … there was a German CG, sort of died out
... … it is worse than mathml, browsers say it is a niche market, not interested in implementing it
... … this idea of doing 3d at w3c, some people have talked about it since early 2000s
... … if digital publishers push for it, maybe the new demand would push things forward

dkaplan: maybe out of scope but when there is STEM outreach maybe talk to some blind scientists.

peter: maybe John Gardner?

tzviya: we do have acccesible authoring tools at 1pm here. Peter, please join if you are awake

<dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe

<ivan> Chair: Markus

Metadata

<Bill_Kasdorf> Metadata agenda is at https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC2014-F2F

mgylling: we have two hours

Bill_Kasdorf: this will be simple

mgylling: what do you see as outcomes after two hours?

Bill_Kasdorf: defer to ivan on first step
... we don't have is a document to deliver to w3c

Bill_Kasdorf: what are we asking of W3C to address metadata
... how can we best express that?
... we focused on many nebulous issues, where the W3C cannot help

ivan: if the IG produces a document on a wish list
... these are things that should happen
... specific things at w3c
... that's as far as this group can go
... under which heading and structure?
... can publish as w3c note
... a stable document that can be refered to
... that's my goal
... in that doc you cannot use the word "recommendation"

Bill_Kasdorf: overview... we know how we got here
... three main things
... first: need to better enable ONIX metadata expressed on the web and in web docs

ivan: [administrative issues discussed]

Bill_Kasdorf: second issue is lack of understanding in pub community of existing tools like URIs
... little understanding of RDFa
... that's in pub side, not library side
... there's a big gulf between trade and library sides of business
... need better education
... third issue is rights metadata
... not just associating rights metadata with publications, but with portions of publications
... we don't have a strategy for those three issues
... let's talk about ONIX first, as we have Graham on the phone, Mr. Onix
... ONIX is a messaging format between trading partners
... it's confused with subject metadata, but ONIX is much more
... the discussion has often involved schema.org
... is the discussion about ONIX? Or schema.org?
... there are other orgs working on similar things
... let's collaborate but not collide
... first thing is to get a firm grasp on players and what they're doing, especially in schema.org
... BISG is U.S. org that talks to Editeur
... BISG is forming WG on book publishers using onix with schema.org
... Graham is chair of that WG for BISG
... when talking with clapierre of Springer, people talking about subscription metadata in schema.org
... Also some work in Library community on schema.org
... so we may need to focus on schema.org rather than ONIX

TimCole: we've worked with OCLC and LOC
... Libraries are trying to figure out how to use schema.org
... need authority files
... we have MARC records looking about information for names to map to URIs
... we analyzed 5m books, got 70% by matching
... partly because old MARC records didn't have birth/death data
... similar results with subject names
... made schema.org records better
... and linked them with other sources
... how to express holdings in schema.org
... there's a community group

Bill_Kasdorf: pubs have ONIX, library has MARC
... but in library world there are major authority files like VIF, worldcat, name authority files
... that are invaluable to librarians, who are the real metadata experts
... but publishers don't know that sh%#

TimCole: link to wikipedia names

<ivan> The community group Tim was talking about: http://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/

Graham: I agree with Tim
... increasing interest in authorities like ISNI in pub world
... not quite the same as VIAF
... but does give you all disambiguations
... close links between OCLC and ISNI
... and is unique persistent identifier for a public identity
... can be expressed as URI
... [lots of slashes]
... there are also subject authorities like BISAC and BIC and Thema
... they do something similar to Dewey or LOC or similar things
... it's not that pub doesn't have authority, it's just different and perhaps a little behind
... ISNI isn't widely used yet

Bill_Kasdorf: there are 8 million ISNI

Graham: ISNI is growing quickly but not widely used
... the subject schemes are widely used
... BISAC is ubiquitious in US, BIC in UK
... the problem is that they are national

<ivan> (the scholarly publishers and authors have a similar service via ORCID (http://www.orcid.org)

Graham: France has CLIL
... there are hundreds of these subject schemes
... Thema is designed to solve this problem
... based on BIC but more international
... Happy First Birthday to Thema!
... it's growing
... and commercially relevant
... it has different features than library subject schemes, which are much more details
... library schemes may have 100000 categories
... publishers have relatively unskilled poeople, there are 4k subjects

s/poeple/people/

madi: [beep]
... what sort of actions do we want to take?

tzviya: this is fun but let's focus

Bill_Kasdorf: there's lots of metadata out there
... focus should be to how to implement this in OWP?
... what needs to be done?
... do we need to chose between these identifiers? No, need lots of them
... but must express as URIs.
... need resolvable identifiers expressed as URIs
... we were focused on ONIX, which means we're focusing on book trade
... note we don't govern ONIX
... schema.org is not W3C standard
... I think we should focus on schema.org implementation, independent of the vocabulary
... what might need to be added/changed to make schema.org more useful

ivan: we need to separate issues
... various schems like ISNI and ORCID
... these are important
... it's sad that we have many standards instead of one
... schema.org is a collection of terms for the properties
... can only have list of subjects (accepted vocabularies)
... we can't really influence them
... schema.org has a heirarchy of classes and properties
... persons and shops and actions
... which falls back to what ONIX can do
... ONIX is way too huge

<tzviya> example: http://schema.org/Book

ivan: if there's already a group looking at mapping a subset of ONIX onto schema.org
... BISG is doing this, which is great
... so we shouldn't do it.
... let's wish them good luck
... and I'd be happy to help
... and use my contacts at schema.org
... so let's not set up Yet Another Group (YAG)

<tzviya> +1

Bill_Kasdorf: This is for book trade onix metadata

ivan: Graham, do you agree?

Graham: yes, I do
... some input from this IG might be useful
... within bisg process
... no need to duplicate effort

ivan: I'll help

mgylling: you seem to have expected this

Bill_Kasdorf: my point is that lots of people are already doing work
... the focus on ONIX here is misguided
... the W3C spans all these interest groups (lowercase)
... libraries, commercial people, etc
... the web crosses all those areas
... if we exclude graham, the people at BISG are unaware of tim's work in library world with schema.org
... is there some matchmaking we can do?

mgylling: is w3c the vehicle?

ivan: we can't federate all these groups

Bill_Kasdorf: w3c as intermediary

ivan: lots of tech here around semantic web
... if issues come up
... then me as former semweb activity lead can help
... but for this IG we should stop

Bill_Kasdorf: we can be responsive but can't do proactive work

ivan: they are in driving seat
... looking at RDF-ization of ONIX
... if there's an interest for it, it's not happening anywhere, it could happen here

Bill_Kasdorf: Graham is supportive of this idea

ivan: This is Graham's hobby

Bill_Kasdorf: Graham is overloaded, an offer to help here could help

mgylling: in the note, propose this as future activity?

ivan: we should explore, not commit

Bill_Kasdorf: I want madi and tcole's perspective
... commercial pubs don't use or understand RDF

madi: I think it's a great idea

ivan: schema.org will never take whole of ONIX

madi: I assume we're talking about RDFa

ivan: RDFa is just an expression of an RDF model
... can be expressed in RDFa or JSON-LD
... it can use some terms that schema.org has
... but can't add terms

madi: start with RDFization but consumable by schema.org
... i know creativework has book
... I've beenl playing with google rich snippets
... I want to take aspects of minimal book or publication, finding key metadata elements
... in a rich snippet that would automate RDF from ONIX
... just a sliver of a subset

ivan: there is an order here that should be kept
... by mapping a subset of ONIX onto schema
... that means that subset is turned into RDF
... which means that a part of onix is already in RDF
... once that work is done by another group
... is there an interest in extending this to the whole of ONIX
... BISG will do subset
... then we can see if extending to whole model is feasible

TCole: I agree with Ivan
... don't take legacy format and turn to RDF
... effort with MARC was abandoned
... effort with Bibframe is ongoing but problematic
... most successful has been map traditional library to schema.org and let some things go
... same thing would happen with onix

<ivan> Bibframe: http://bibframe.org

TCole: some of onix you might not want in schema.org

fettes: from books that I see
... looking at EPUB
... has vast metadata like DAISY terms
... and name/value pairs
... it's all random
... there's rich language that no one uses
... identifier is most important thing and we don't trust it
... we can shoehorn interesting information into OPF file
... it's just using meta name of property
... you can have registry of roles
... ibooks:version
... using vendor prefix then push to standard

tzviya: you're talking about package metadata
... but we're supplying you with ONIX which is better metadata
... the amazon metadata is from ONIX
... that stuff is updated

fettes: so book metadata is orphaned

Bill_Kasdorf: we have same disconnect between commercial and library world
... cool made a comment about not getting article metadata about journals

Bill_Kasdorf: because the systems are focused on titles and issues
... so the publisher has the metadata, but the article metadata is stripped out
... by the metadata handoffs through intermediaries
... lots of what in ONIX doesn't get to MARC (for example)
... so library doesn't get rich metadata, even though publisher created it
... they have OCLC MARC record, but they have another one with lots of publisher metadata

Bill_Kasdorf: we need to move on
... the proposal with item one is that we should not pursue ONIX in schema.org
... just be resource to BISG
... don't want to complicate that one with Ivan's suggestion of RDFization of all of ONIX
... so we won't pursue #1
... #2 gets at one aspect of Alistair's consistent use of identifiers
... let's separate those issues
... so we separate proper use of identifiers with URI
... is that the business of this group? Education?

ivan: we collect existing documents
... there's an RDFa primer
... there's a cool uris URIs

<tzviya> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-rdfa-primer/

ivan: the issue is not covered, but the first thing is to collect those resources

<tzviya> http://www.w3.org/TR/cooluris/

ivan: and then consider whether there's somthing missing

Bill_Kasdorf: what do we need to do?
... can we assign some folks to look at this issue and report back?

ivan: if at the end of that and some things that are not covered, this group can write more documents

Bill_Kasdorf: +1

<scribe> ACTION: Bill_Kasdorf to lead activity of collating existing resources of best practices for RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-37 - Lead activity of collating existing resources of best practices for rdfa [on Bill Kasdorf - due 2014-11-07].

Bill_Kasdorf: call for volunteers
... email Bill K. if you want to participate
... do we need similar activity on use of URI

ivan: it's one thing

<astein> Technical difficulties - I just wanted to add on to Bill's comment about publisher metadata earlier and the loss of information from the complicated ecosystem, that the worst offenders are from Open Access Journal publishers.

Bill_Kasdorf: the difference with URI issue is engaging with users of identifiers like crossref, editeur,
... get unanimity from governance groups to express to their users to use their identifiers as URIs

ivan: there's disagreement
... on how to handle this
... for many they don't understand why this is important

Bill_Kasdorf: they are realizing

ivan: crossref is recognizing this

Bill_Kasdorf: update to ISBN has expanded guidance on this

ivan: it's not just issue of having URI
... but what happens when I try to dereference
... there there are disagreements

Bill_Kasdorf: I want separate group on thaat

ivan: Phil Archer will want to participate
... he's activity lead for data

Bill_Kasdorf: do I have the leeway to extend scope as far as I am able to?
... I know CA data library site which uses DOI
... can I bring them into conversation?

ivan: I know people at DataCite
... they are not as clearly using DOIs as URIs like crossref

Bill_Kasdorf: it's separate registration agency

ivan: we want DOIs as URI, I'm not sure if Data Site does this

tzviya: let's document first
... there are a lots of organizations
... let's pull them together at some point
... i think of that as stage two
... I talked to Phil ARcher about this, he'll have a lot to say

Bill_Kasdorf: I see both action items as information gathering

tzviya: let's finish something

mgylling: the action is registered
... the marching orders seem clear

Bill_Kasdorf: and we separate the two

<scribe> ACTION: Bill_Kasdorf to develope comprehensive list of identifiers that should be expressed as URIs and contact governance organizations to find current recommendations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-38 - Develope comprehensive list of identifiers that should be expressed as uris and contact governance organizations to find current recommendations [on Bill Kasdorf - due 2014-11-07].

Bill_Kasdorf: didn't get much feedback on github
... rights metadata is important
... expressing in actionable way
... they have two interests
... one is how can I know at a granular level that I have the right to do X
... can I use a print image in my ebook?
... goes beyond that to IP
... other question is how to monetize my IP
... how can I express rights on components of documents
... lets me police usage
... can I license rights to this thing?
... particularly important with images
... we're working with life magazine photo archive
... they were losing lots of money every year
... intersects with royalty payments
... lots of folks working on this like IPTC
... working with W3C
... ODRL and RightsML
... BISG has a new priority to look at this from author and agent perspective
... IDEAlliance has three components: contractual, usage, monitoring
... we might be able to help
... create an infrastructure in web tech

ivan: you scare me
... rights metadata
... there were only CGs at W3C
... it's not technical
... you need lawyers
... and we don't have lawyers

Bill_Kasdorf: I'm thinking infrastructure

ivan: setting up another CG can be done
... you need to talk to people who are already doing it
... I don't know what they would say
... to turn it into w3c work item is a different thing
... if you have a CG then W3C does not endorse work
... results may leave CG and go into other parts of W3C
... endorsement in legal sphere is very tricky

Karen_: DOn't know about any work in this area

liam_: you must distinguish between rights identification and rights management

<Karen_> s/Don't know about any work in this area at W3C

liam_: RDF says who the author is

Bill_Kasdorf: but doesn't describe contract

liam_: I agree with Ivan that finding a way of describing moral rights internationally in RDF, XML, or animated cat GIFs is scary
... won't be achievable

Bill_Kasdorf: I'm learning that my tendancy to bring siloed people together isn't a good fit for w3c

ivan: I don't agree
... we can bring together different parties
... OA group started that way

<astein> Question: something like the Creative Commons licenses beyond the open access sphere but expanded to a metadata scheme?

ivan: lots of discussion to bring people together
... is a success now

Bill_Kasdorf: started with OA CG, now a WG

ivan: yes

Bill_Kasdorf: is there a role for this IG in that?

Karen_: copyright clearance center does this
... they are member of this group
... talk to her

ivan: CC in one sense is good example
... all licenses are espressed in RDF
... they helped start RDFa
... they way they worked is with lawyers
... it's legal issues and not technical issues

Bill_Kasdorf: liam, could you rephrase

liam_: rights identification but not rights management
... legal issues in both parts

tzviya: will need lawyer to help with tagging

ivan: you need international lawyers

liam_: I run stock image company
... I scan out-of-copyright books
... wikipedia articles about law are not by lawyers
... copyright articles are similar

<astein> Could we invite ALA's OITP or a Copyright/Intellectual Property/Law Librarian to collaborate on this?

liam_: legal landscape is changing rapidly

Bill_Kasdorf: whether or not have this as potential activity
... do we want to include an activity that would try to bring together groups working on rights

tzviya: this is one example of granular metadata
... if we form a CG about this
... we might have to for every other sort of granular metadata

Bill_Kasdorf: this is picking something to focus on that's important

tzviya: the other possibility is that this can be addressed by annotations

ivan: no
... annotations give you framework to express something, but not what to express

Bill_Kasdorf: interoperability is the important thing
... it's so random it's not interoperable
... w3c can build infrastructure to make it interoperable

<astein> or IFLA to get this advice

ivan: having a CG that tries to reconcile these different vocabularies is a useful thing
... to form that CG someone needs to get these partners to accept to work together
... that somebody would be Bill Kasdorf
... whether you need backing of IG to do that is up to you
... that's where IG would stop

Bill_Kasdorf: let me suggest this
... if there's an interest in this group
... is it worth spending my time on?
... I am in touch with these people

tzviya: none of those people are involved in this group

ivan: except Heather

Bill_Kasdorf: BISG is also active in this group
... there are stakeholders in those groups who may be w3c members
... IPTC has thomson reuters

<tzviya> dauwhe: this has taken a lot of time today and will take a lot of time if we invest time

<Zakim> liam_, you wanted to say expression facility might be OK for publisher-provided info

liam: I'd like to retract further
... we had the web fonts work
... there are some similar issues

<tzviya> ...we are a group that supports incorporating into web and can help once these groups figure out how they will work together

liam: the font companies had to come to an agreement about font piracy
... people would download fonts intentionally or unintentionally
... what we did was two-fold
... WOFF fonts dont' work as desktop font
... you'd have to use program, which is legal evidence of willful intent
... it's like a fence around a swimming pool, which is an attractive nuisance in legal technology
... by showing willful intent, then you can prosecute
... and there is metadata in the fonts that includes info about the EULA
... there is metadata in there that expresses rights
... but we didn't talk about the interpretation of those rights
... which were in XML by the way
... but we don't say anthing about it
... that could go a long way to being useful

Bill_Kasdorf: that's a useful analogy

liam: that is the first point

Bill_Kasdorf: that outreach may not be about some major diplomatic effort
... but that we know you're working on this issue
... but are there issues with the web?
... this is why it's a metadata question--do we have a mechanism for associating metadata?

ivan: in case of WOFF, there were issues with how to package fonts
... that's not the case here. We know where to put metadata if we have vocab
... but the vocab is what we don't have, and it's a translation of legal terms
... epub has too much metadata

Bill_Kasdorf: epub can have rights metadata

ivan: it's not up to us to restrict what metadata you can use

liam: if you look at fonts in firefox, it has areas to display metadata
... whether it's worth going there I don't know
... rights expression CG can bring interesting peopoe

madi: it is a huge headache
... if we succeed we'd accomplish something huge
... but I don't think it's likely
... lawyers don't think legal expression can be standardized
... so they resist these vocabularies
... maybe a CG with low expectations?
... we can't do anything in a year

Bill_Kasdorf: IDEAlliance is establishing a vocab to do three things
... one: do you have rights? Y/N
... two: you have rights under condition
... third: consult the lawyer

tzviya: that would be insufficient for most publishers
... due to restrictions like fixed durations and so on
... this is too out of scope

Bill_Kasdorf: I just think this is important

liam: if you make a CG I'll be in it

<astein> conference ribbons

Bill_Kasdorf: is that OK with you?

madi: we're working on it here for years
... haven't moved the needle very far

mgylling: if your friends want to do a CG that's fine
... I think we're about to end the session
... do you want other suggestions?

ivan: let's be realistic. to do both URI and RDF outreach docs is already a tall order

Bill_Kasdorf: and those would be good outcomes

tzviya: we already have enough to do

Bill_Kasdorf: is there consensus?

all: yes

Bill_Kasdorf: so we'll focus on these

mgylling: it's 11:24, we're re-convening at 1PM
... cindy and richard will come at 3PM

break type="lunch"

Accessibility (meeting with ATAG)

mgylling: the plan is for Deborah to update us

[introductions]

mgylling: Deborah, would you recap the previous descussions, to get everyone up to date?

dkaplan: there were a couple of meetings
... about: what should we do?
... Charles and I became heads of the accessibility task force

dkaplan: together with others: they would explain how they would work about accessiblility
... they have been looking at techniques: this is fine, this is not (needs expanding)

clapierre: they got a lot of pushback by W3C WCAG WG, wanted more use cases

dkaplan: so, our idea is to start that process for digital publishing, mirrorring that effort
... question: what would be most helpfull when we start that process?

Jan: we deal with any tool that is used by authors in order to produce a webbased experience for another user (def authoring tool)
... not considering changing your own experience
... a lot of experience, guidelines, with a wide variety (plugins, CMS, Dreamweaver, blogs...)
... we think DPUB is covered, so a review would be usefull
... there is a ref doc, examples
... so DPUB examples would be very useful

<tzviya> http://www.w3.org/TR/IMPLEMENTING-ATAG20/

dkaplan: If we wanted to look into DPUB examples, or existing examples?

<jeanne> also Overview of ATAG -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/atag-glance.php

Jan: we have something like: have checks for accessibility, varies a whole lot
... we don't do techniques, but we provide examples of what if might look like
... there was an old document about techniques, but there was confusion, so we changed the name to 'implementing'

dkaplan: if we look into those documents, and find stuff that might be expanded, how to do that?

Jan: what will hopefully happen, is that we get new examples for DPUB (nicely explained) for success criteria eg 3.1.1, and that will be put into the doc, gets into new publication (this doc is a note)
... there is no deadline
... the doc is called Implementing ATAG
... ATAG has 2 main parts
... what should you do in content to make that content rendered accessible?

part A: author interface needs to be accessible

part B: production accessibility

Jan: it is more important for the used tools to support accessibility, then that a group publishes accessibility guidelines

dkaplan: how do you make an interface accessible?

Jan: most will involve part A, our first guideline is: meet WCAG

dkaplan: are there specific needs for DPUB about what is produced?
... is at the publishers level

Jan: consumers are tool devs (microsoft, adobe, ...)

dkaplan: the reason why this is relevant, because a lot of tools are built inhouse, to meet publishing needs
... not just aimed at generic content, aimed at workflow

Jan: if you read the doc, so many support the ease of user experience
... if tools are not accessible, a human is needed to fix stuff later on
... if you are creating a long description, that needs to be stored and reused as much as possible

dkaplan: that is mostly what i think about in DPUB: creators have a vast amount of images, the company that is creating the tool has no idea how to tag those images
... that is a unique req

Jan: You won't find something like: content HAS to comply to... that is impossible to enforce.
... we try to flexible on the design of the doc

tzviya: if worked for a publisher for 14 years, where would this fit? because I have never encountered something like this, eg, an image _must_ have an alt text

Jan: it is more about guidelines, not rules
... eg not a government legislation (thou shalt not)

tzviya: not even a guideline encountered

dkaplan: eg, word does do grammatic checking, but no accessible checking

Jan: they do have an accessibility checker, hard to turn on, but it exists

tzviya: point is that publishers probably don't know about this

Jan: this doc is aimed to tool devs
... why use tooling: to hide ugly details
... we say: there is an extra accessible layer on top

jeanne: the text book publishers are going to be more aware of this

tzviya: i am part, no they are not

jeanne: there are legal requirements

Jan: ATAG is not well known compared to WCAG

Jeanne: there are legal reqs for eg students with disabilities, we try to make it easier for people to do the right thing
... there is a big market for accessibility
... an opportunity

dkaplan: is ATAG only intended for the authoring tools, or also for the conversion tools?

Jan: it does talk about conversion, section about conserving accessibility, sometimes that cannot be fully automated
... sometimes, prompts are needed, human intervention

<pkra> wordpress and OERpub editor are good examples for simple approaches with high "conversion rates" (i..e, making users actually input the content)

Jan: we call those: recoding transformations, there is also structural transformations, and 'pretty print' transformations

mgylling: you are in CR, ammending to the current doc is not an issue?

Jan: correct

mgylling: dkaplan, you wanted to add to this doc?

dkaplan: yes, mostly examples

mgylling: what is the concrete approach?

dkaplan: after talking to cathy and kim, asking: how much time into this? amswer: 2-8 hours a week
... they wanted as much accessibility in there as possible, very explicit workflow (why do we change something)

Jan: techniques are special in WCAG, sufficient techniques, advisory techniques,
... there is more process around that
... ;you would just send us examples, and then it is published

dkaplan: there should be a wordsmith expert
... there was a lot of misunderstanding the specific language for a specific framework
... we need help on that for WCAG

Jeanne: idea: why not just write a note: DPUB using ATAG and/or accessibility guideline practices
... you could focus on DPUB, relevant to the process
... then you have a single linking point
... and it would be _your_ note, without fuzziness of language
... and it can refer to ATAG, WCAG, ...
... people could go to that one, in DPUB speak

mgylling: about fixed-layout ebooks: in accessibility, it might be horrible (tool that exports fixed epub is horrible)
... contextualized note could go very deep into this

dkaplan: [superseded notices is not clear]
... would a separate note get the right attention

clapierre: could there be a dual link from ATAG

Jan: we could
... we know about fixed layout
... a remark: ATAG doesn't judge (what a flash tool?! shame on you!), it guides the user as much as possible

Bill_Kasdorf: the role of the BISG Accessibility Working Group is evangelizing this stuff, as we are part of a big organization, we will make sure that this separate note gets attention

mgylling: mobile folks didn't chose a separate note?

dkaplan: DPUB is a specific industry, whereas mobile is part of the product of every kind of industry
... they are not the same

clapierre: we will run into the same issues (ereader on your desktop vs on your tablet, etc)

Jan: they kind of melt together (responsive design), it did make sense to do what they did

dkaplan; we should be very carefull, if we create our own note

scribe: it should use the 'approved' language

clapierre: there may be issues that, where a note is not enough
... eg, image of a drop cap must be spoken out by a11y tools correctly
... we might go up to W3C standard

Jan: I would love example of DPUB for inclusion into our doc

mgylling: the more propagation, the better, the higher we get, the more discoverability

Robin Seaman: what about Oreilly Atlas? a11y platforms?

Jan: that would be part A of our doc
... the biggest barrier is attitude

Jan: positive feedback loop is good

<Jutta> virtuous cycle

liam: about fixed layout: two kinds

1: ipad: every page is a bmp
... without judging, fixed layout is a challenge, good example for a11y
... drop cap is another (css mech for that now, improves a11y), but tools are lagging

dhauwe: there are still problems

liam: someone with a11y needs using an authoring tool, vs creating a11y content

Jan: you can have non-a11y tools that produce a11y content, and vice versa

<liam> [2 - svg]

Bill_Kasdorf: is there any sort of validator for a11y?

Jan: there is a mix: tools that return report using a server, integrated tools (eg Word)

Bill_Kasdorf: there is a master EPUB checker, independent of the tools, is there something authorative like that?

Jan: yes, eg EMWeave

dkaplan: that is actually impossible
... epubcheck is something like doing a checksum

<pkra> it does a bit more these days... suggestions on code quality.

Jan: not so different than spelling and grammar, they flag for human judgement

<Jutta> checking after authoring is also not as useful as prompting and checking during authoring

Jan: closer to that than validity checking
... everybody needs to know some, there are also some experts out there

Jeanne: there are a11y checkers for HTML, to talk to them for an EPUB a11y checker

<Jutta> an example of integrated checking in EPub is Open Author

Jeanne: somthings can be flagged for humans to check, some things can be automated

fettes: ebpucheck is nice, but if you use a tool that creates epubs, if that is a wrong epub, you have a problem
... iBooks uses warnings
... checker should be integrated into the tool

mgylling: to take away: the separate note thing

dkaplan: more take away: we should also keep you guys in the loop
... so stuff might be incorporated into the ATAG document

clapierre: we will get going, an hour a week, we will pull you guys in, some point or another

Jan: okay

mgylling: BISG does something about a11y for fixed layout?
... yes
... i wrote that section

dauwhe: mostly warnings, how users deal with that, is their choice

mgylling: we should make sure there are no parallel notes out there

Bill_kasdorf: agreed, no duplication (there is already a lot of duplicate stuff)
... we will not add to the problem, we will try to shine a light

dkaplan: could someone of that group join us?

tzviya: I can

Robin: me too

mgylling: thanks y'all!

<pkra> clap clap

Planning for the future of the IG

mgylling: talk about actions items, and logistics
... to make sure actions and marching orders are clear

karen: i want to mention: converations with other global regions (ie, indian publishing community)
... could be short agenda item

pagination

tzviya: adding section about spread behaviour at latin req
... marcus and liam will have a fun time creating the page layout req
... I will give pdf examples of paginated content

dauwhe: I can triage them, we may need to decide how to communicate the insights they will provide

ivan: we can put the big ones on the W3C site

dauwhe: or in scope for latin req
... could be small snippets

tzviya: I will do small snippets (1-2 pages)

liam: is this in scope for paged layout?

<liam> http://kesselstreet.tripod.com/notmine/absolute_learning.gif

tzviya: bus/business use case is for Karen

ivan: Karen will collect, everyone should help

tzviya: perhaps Paul?

mgylling: what about time commitments? now, everything has one week due, seems not possible

tzviya: I can give examples withing 2 weeks
... volunteerism is a general problem

ivan: very specific jobs might be easier to find volunteers

mgylling: we need timelines, we cannot fix volunteers atm

dauwhe: I will add to the latin req by thanksgiving (27/11)

[updates are being done in www.w3.org/dpub/ig/track/actions/open ]

[updates are further being done in the actions page, deadlines are being set]

ivan: [about bus case] when do we have a list of names we can act upon?
... we really concentrate on the current resources (only books, might change in the future)

mgylling: was this a good idea?

karen: it would be useful

ivan: we will have on this and on EPUBWEB discussions with the browser vendors
... I think as well this doc will be very useful

tzviya: so this bizz case doc by the end of november?

karen: yes

role stuff

mgylling: we are good to go, we are creating a TF under PF that will take a subset of EPUB structural semantics, do stuff (OWLifying)
... headed by tzviya and me, with contributions of mark ???
... charles and deborah as well
... the action is to review and narrow the list
... by mid december?

tzviyah: yes, and we will talk to Paul?

mgylling: I'll do that

ivan: I will try to understand the OWL thing, what they do
... remove this separate action, and add me to the previous one

stem meeting actions

tzviyah: survey send out early november, results by end november
... by Peter
... in time by force11

ivan: force11 is in January

metadata actions

Bill_kasdorf: actions are depending on volunteers (I already got some)
... by myself, I could commit to one in november, but there are volunteers

ivan: I think both actions are comparable in size

Bill_kasdorf: I am busy till mid november

ivan: so commit to both by mid december?

bill_kasdorf: yeah

ivan: so current document should be closed down.

mgylling: also for rob, to finalize annotation
... use cases

dkaplan: i will send out an email: we will do a11y reset, and ask to join again
... so people with not that many actions: we are superfun to work with! We have candy!

<clapierre1> http://diagramcenter.org/54-9-tips-for-creating-accessible-epub-3-files.html

clapierre: I added a benetech file with tips for a11y for EPUB
... we think that that list of tips will be linked back to the a11y note, that will link to WCAG etc

tzviya: maybe an extra F2F, during a conference maybe? (BEA, that is together with IDPF)
... is that valuable?

ivan: yes

dkaplan: could be throw together a conference wiki page?

bill_kasdorf: I have ssp and IDPF, so if this could be at the frontend of IDPF, that would be great

tzviya: the conference wiki is a good idea (also CSUN

ivan: we need it to be before summer

Misc

karen: also other parts of the world (eg EDUPUB)

mgylling: may sounds better
... next TPAC is in Saporro, so that is not an easy location
... that is an argument to get another meeting
... we are getting a lot of complains that the current time for telcon is not great

tzviya: certainly for Asia

karen: India has a lot of interest in DPUB
... the time is prohibitive to participate
... they want to make sure there use cases get attention
... maybe they have their own task force? own community group? representative for our telcons?
... ideally, we should have one time that fits for all

bill_kasdorf: publishers or suppliers?

karen: both
... 10-12 people, so not insignificant

mgylling: what to do?

liam: we could move India

ivan: having yet another task force, means extra load to tzviya and marcus, I am reluctant to go that way
... we have a situation where latinreq is done here
... at some point, japan, chinese and korean is going on, which span on i18n activities
... the indian group could be a separate interest group, // to china

<liam> [note, jlreq was a joint task force with XSL-FO, CSS and I18N ]

ivan: with the additional feature that they have a representative for our call, or we sporadically organize calls with more convenient times for them
... if we move the call, we have to move the call 1-2 hours forward, which is not practical for the west coast

karen: they could maybe join other task forces?

robin: we met the former head of Elsevier, it could be that there is an intersection there

dkaplan: extra help to the a11y group would be very much appreciated

ivan: apart from some sparks, we did not really make use of e-mail discussions, sometimes there are long discussions on the monday calls
... we could make more use of the email discussions, and then the timezone is no longer a problem

xiaoqian: we have community group, where DPUB discussions should happen

karen: for India, a separate interest group does not make sense, whilst they want to be bonafide members

ivan: chartering an extra interest group is not a problem, as it are india specific issues

karen: it is not only India related, they also want to contribute to the main core

tzviya: extra help is always appreciated

ivan: task forces have very ad hoc goals, there are no regular timings, more emails
... there, there is no problem

karen: maybe we can organize a call with the Indian office, on a convenient time, to check the matches and the task forces with them

tzviya: ok

karen: I will organize that

dkaplan: anybody who knows anyone who cares about a11y, put them in touch with us

<tzviya> thank you

<dauwhe> me s/an editor/THE editor/

I18N

richard: Need intro? Yes

… brief overview of I18n WG

… seek out features, provide advice to WGs, review specs, liase with other orgs, create tests, etc

… home page has a bunch drill down topic based tasks, plus dos and don’ts

… have a checker/validator

… run workshops from various disciplines. Lock them in a room until they are smiling and happy

… slides are available online

… empower local communities to participate

… work they have done: predefined counters for various scripts. The document has the CSS you need, and it will create correct script-based styling

… Arabic math done in mathml WG.

… have worked a lot on ruby, working on a new model for html 5 and working with CSS to enable fine adjustments of these annotations

… show of hands of people who are familiar with various interesting scripts

… one problem with BIDI was use of unicode BIDI algorithm. Usually works, but not always

… [showing example of restaurant review putting restaurant names in the wrong place]

… they worked on solving this

… that’s the general stuff they work on

… they started to look at Japanese content specifically

… TF met over 2 years, created a huge document “Requirements for Japanese Text Layout”

… Document is in both Japanese and English

<dauwhe> http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/

… Did not address problems in CSS, just described text layout for Japanese, to make it perrenial

… TF worked in their own language, comms in own lang

… then provided English language version

… So succesful, moved on to Korean

<dauwhe> http://www.w3.org/TR/klreq/

… Things not going too fast, but they have some work out

… have an indic TF as well, still early days

… now working on Chinese

… simplified and traditional

… also looking at minority scripts (Mongolian, Tibetan & Uyghur)

… lots of interesting problems, nto just styling (for instance, fonts)

… Looking at Thai - for instance letter spacing

… have to decompose and then apply spacing in some cases

… letter spacing in Hindi may need to keep two grapheme clusters together, so letter spacing is a problem

… white space processing - may need to drop inserted spaces (say, after pretty printing content)

… underlines are tricky - in some scripts if the line crosses certain glyphs it changes their meaning

… emphasis issues - for instance, in Tibetan need to position on syllables

… ruby differences (eg bopomofo in Taiwan)

… how do Korean line breaking rules work?

… Arabic justification - rules vary based on font, even if the text is identical

… Tibetan justification - still researching the best way to do it in modern typography

… working to get more layout requirements

… they are trying to get the international community more involved.

… instead of a bunch of geeks in a room figuring it out

xiaoqian: had a Chinese layout workshop earlier - Mongolian professor said they are trying to help others understand their problems with an online magazine

… need to get more data from local experts

alan: what is up with Korean WG?

richard: not hearing much from them

alan: LG may be joining

charles: looking at the list of languages: what about Burmese?

richard: looking at it, based on indic languages

… may be other issues (eg no spaces between words)

ivan: based on a presentation a few years ago, this IG will be limited to Latin

… Is there a need to synchronize on the type of problems and concerns across languages? So documents produced for other languages are as relevant to digipub as latin rec

… Also, yesterday we talked about pagination. We will initiate some work on it. Need to coordinate.

… Also, have Indian group joining us. Some of their issues will be language specific. How to handle overlap with this group?

richard: back to Burmese sample: problems with mobile vs desktop

… need to conform to proper unicode is really only solution

<dauwhe> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Improving_typography_on_the_Web_and_in_eBooks

… improving typography on the web. Fantasai has said, layout isn’t just language based (for instance, specific scripts change things)

<tzviya> http://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-latinreq/

<Karen_> [Richard shows wiki page on Improving text layout and typography on the Web in ebooks]

addison: digital pubs need to discover all these things.
... want to make sure international standards are done at w3c and move into epub

tzviya: worried we are overlapping - how to we work together

richard: wants us to look at what they are doing, see if it will help us or if we can work on it with them

… Indic group wanted to document stuff for us, richard pushed them to get it in a single place (i18n WG)

ivan: all the documents i18n wg have produced would be extremely useful for epub publishers
... worried that most publishers don’t know these documents and tools exist
... last thing - do we have time for Chinese CG?

xiaoqian: chinese wg is same as Chinese requirement TF

ivan: but whatever comes out of the CG - we would like to hear about it

xiaoqian: there are still gaps between dpub wg and Chinese TF. They need to fill the gaps.

richard: i18n WG working on getting complex communication issues resolved

… want to work with dpub on that

murakami: in Japan one study group working on next gen layout for browsers

… supported by Japanese government

… the chair of that group is Koji Ishii

… next year TPAC will be in Sapporo

… wants us to work in conjunction with that group

richard: Lets look at ways we can tie together all the appropriate groups

ivan: Looking for actions

action ivan to find someone to review i18n web page

<trackbot> Created ACTION-42 - Find someone to review i18n web page [on Ivan Herman - due 2014-11-07].

ivan: we should report back to i18n wg

<tzviya> ACTION Tzviya DPUB to read i18n documentation from EPUB perspective for gap analysis

<trackbot> Created ACTION-43 - Dpub to read i18n documentation from epub perspective for gap analysis [on Tzviya Siegman - due 2014-11-07].

… especially pagination recs need to coordinate

<chunming> You may refer to the report of Chinese Layout Req Workshop this september: http://www.chinaw3c.org/layout-workshop-report.html#conclusion

… once a year at TPAC may not be enough

takeshi: gathering info from many communities is very important, but need to be careful - in some cases need to understand how it interacts with Latin languages

… for instance, emphasis in Japanese with Latin glyphs

richard: if we make all these requirements without tieing to technologies that’s fine

… but we need to tie this back to the technologies, and need to coordinate with similar language groups (for instance Chinese and Japanese)

… need to figure out what is the web of comms channels to make this work

tzviya: we will review their docs, and work with ivan on coordinating comms with i18n wg

addison: is this a good time to start reviewing our work?

… this is a weird case, since we are working on similar things

karen: Communications - is that intra-w3c? Or do you mean external comms?

tzviya: Intention was intra-w3c

karen: is there an opportunity to do more educational outreach?

tzviya: yes, eventually

<tzviya> thank you

<ivan> Meeting adjurned