Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

06 Oct 2014

See also: IRC log


 Alan Stearns (Stearns), Charles LaPierre (clapierre), Markus Gylling (mgylling), Ivan Herman (Ivan), Tzviya Siegman (Tzviya), Peter Kreutzberger (pkra), Ayla Stein (astein), Dave Cramer (dauwhe), Karen Myers (Karen_Myers), Deborah Kaplan (dkaplan3), Laura Dawson (dawson), Bill Kasdorf (Bill_Kasdorf), Ben De Meester (bjdmeest), Phil Madans (philm), Shinyu Murakami (murakami), Rob Sanderson (azaroth), Paul Belfanti (pBelfanti), Thierry Michel (tmichel),  Brady Duga (duga), Frederick Hirsch (fjh), Bert Bos (Bert).
Luc Audrain, Michael Miller, Vladimir Levantovsky, Timothy Cole, Laura Fowler, Liza Daly, David Stroup.
Markus Gylling
Karen Myers


<mgylling> last weeks minutes: http://www.w3.org/2014/09/29-dpub-minutes.html

F2F Agenda

Markus: Thanks everybody for joining today

…Can we approve last week's minute?

…Please speak up if you do not want to approve


…Ok, perfect [approved]

<mgylling> TPAC agenda: http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC2014-F2F

…Today we have a pretty stable agenda for TPAC

…let's see what remains to do for meeting bookings

Markus: So to TPAC agenda page

…let's being with a check-in with the ones we are stable with

…on the Friday afternoon the presentation by Internationalization with Richard Ishida between 3-4pm is booked

…Tzviya, that meeting with Janina in Protocols and Formats WG is set?

Tzviya: She proposed two sessions

…2pm on Thursday

…to talk for 90 minutes to talk about structural semantics and general accessibility concerns

…and then picking up at 4:00pm to talk about some of issues that ETF had raised about personalization

…May be good time to bring in people from SVG as well

…but we have not yet reached out to them

Markus: We had proposed a recap session at that time, but that is easy to move

…first one is 14:00-15:30 with P&F

…then break

…then 16:00 to when?

Tzviya: She [Janina] had proposed to 18:00

…but she has not yet discussed with others

Markus: I'll work on the SVG invitation

…Ok, great

…If that is what they are reserving, we should take the bait

…have you confirmed, Tzviya?

Tzviya: yes

Markus: Great

…Then where do we book the Books in Browsers recap session?

…It's likely to have presentations that we want to circle back on during our meeting

…We need a suitable slot for that

Ivan: I idid not realize P&F needed the whole afternoon

Tzviya: not sure if we need the whole time

Markus: Should we do 16:00-17:00 for the second slot?

Ivan: yes

…we cannot spend whole afternoon only on it

Markus: But we are doing pagination for the morning! [smiles]

Ivan: Yes, because it's core!

Markus: Dave, speaking of pagination, how are things going for that Thursday morning sessions

Dave: I am working on it; brought it up to CSS on last call

…I am writing now and they asked to say who are most important people [for this session]

Bert: There will be people from CSS; I will be there, too

…Smart to send an email and see who will be there precisely

Markus: Let me see…two outstanding things is invitations

…invitees from CSS for Thursday morning

…and I need to invite the SVG WG for second session with PF on Thursday afternoon

Markus: It says the Friday morning STEM session is a placeholder

…Peter, have you confirmed a pre-brief?

Peter: right

…i don't remember why we made it a place holder

…I can make the time and give an update

…on where we are and spawn a discussion

Markus: great

Peter: I remember now why it's a placeholder; I was not sure how much progress we would have

…it is still an open problem for me; speed is not what I would have liked

…would like to take it up

…no news on that end; have some calls this week, my own time is fuzzy

Markus: I just removed the placeholder marker, so consider yourself booked

…We have generous lunch breaks; three hours both days

…not about eating pastries for 3 hours; it's intended for ad hoc meetings

Ivan: and we are already using some of it on Thursday

Markus: yes, from 4 to 3 hours originally

…Any questions suggestions or remarks

<tzviya> karen: we are expecting some observer guests from organizations that are considering membership

Markus: We will give them a warm-hearted welcome

<tzviya> ...let's make sure we understand their role in terms of direct dialogue

Tzviya: Peter, remind me, is there anyone you would like to invite to STEM meeting outside of DPub

Peter: I suggested the MathML group

…Inkling sounds great

…I think that is the only thing I mentioned

Tzviya: Markus, we had talked about possibly inviting people from HTML to the Thursday meetings

Markus: yes

…thought we might do that over one of the lunch breaks; with Michael Smith and one of the eidtors


…we don't have a session dedicated to HTML

Ivan: If we get into the discussion on the paging

…I am not sure that everything will only be CSS

…then it becomes very much a topic that touches upon HTML, the DOM

…so maybe if we have some idea of the structure of the Thursday morning in this sense

…then getting someone from HTML to be around for that part of the discussion would be very helpful

Brady: I'm not sure if answer is because that it can all be done in CSS

…and we go down the @ model path

…I don't know who is necessary for this

Markus: Right

…I'm checking the attendee list

Ted O'Connor signed up to attend Friday

…so we don't have anyone from the [HTML] group at this time

Markus: Dave, what do you think?

…This session is more about getting the IG oriented in the book 3 and functional requirements and use cases; does not feel like it's urgent to have HTML experts around

…but maybe I'm being pessimistic about the amount of progress being made

Dave: It does not feel like it's necessary at this stage

…more to give this group an idea of what is happening and what is likely to happen

…i have done searching across the mailing list; there is very little about this

…has been an undercurrent for a while

…some people may be afraid to address because it could be such a massive effort

Ivan; Ok

Markus: Ok

Peter: maybe not quite the right message

…two weeks ago there was a short statement around improvement of tables to do decimal marker, alignment

…these kinds of these


…I jumped in to say they exist on the MathML spec

…and could be a conversation about how these things move up in the spec

…I wanted to bring this up

…at TPAC, or we could bring up at another time

…I think Dave or Tzviya brought this up a couple weeks ago

Ivan: I don't remember; I'm not sure I understand what the idea is

Tzviya: a joint effort

…I had given Dave an example of something that occurs frequently in books that includes math

…there is something that can be done with we align with decimals

…I think Dave has incorporated into the document

…i think Peter's question is that this crosses MathML and Pagination, perhaps this is an example of something that crosses other Working Groups

…and discuss where this should live

Peter: That is a great summary

Markus: Where improvements of table rendering should live

…is that the topic?

Dave: there is a whole group of equations: I guess, yes

…that may not align

<Bill_Kasdorf> this same issue comes up in poetry

…although talking about aligning on particular objects

…not sure if its' about table case and table column alignment

…table case is pretty specialized

…I know there have been some things in CSS to align

…but have been removed or depricated

Markus: how is this different from all the other things in LatinrRec?

…what stands out?

Dave: From broader perspective, table alignment is a requirement for people who make lots of different kinds of books

…it seems quite rational to mention this in LatinRec

…how we bring this capability into the OWP, I am less sure about

Peter: My perspective

…when this first came up two weeks ago

…it seems perfect example of a common need that could also help the STEM and Math side

…MathML's tables are more powerful than HTML tables…results in implementations being a pain the a**

…cannot have such a powerful table model

…why I jumped on this

…seems like a great opp to have a conversation about how STEM and Math could help inform CSS and HTML

…and move these forward more quickly

…might just be a few simple things that could be done in CSS and HTML

<Zakim> Bert, you wanted to say there will be nobody from MathML, except me. (But PeterK is as good an expert on MathML as anybody in the Math WG, I expect...) And table alignment in CSS

…that could help to reduce the complexity today

Bert: Aligning tables is indeed an old topic

…CSS2 was not implemented

…for the moment, no one is against it

…it will be in some other module

…it's a low priority item, but nobody is pushing for it either

…you will need a lot of lobbying

…Other thing I wanted to say

<tzviya> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/REC-MathML3-20140410/chapter3.html#presm.malign

…is I don't think it's useful to schedule a session on MathML since except for me, there won't be anyone at TPAC

…and Peter is more expert

Markus: Right

Ivan: I think that writing these things down

<pkra> right. That doesn't make sense then...

…what Peter talked about

…very clearly would be very interesting

…and also maybe become part of our report

…that we would use to talk to various people

…I see Alan making a comment

…on irc that this should be done

…and if we have to lobby with CSS or HTML WGs, I don't know

…we an try it

…but we cannot do it at TPAC; it's too close now

Markus: Peter, can you consider taking on Alan's suggestion to compare the models?

Peter: yes, I can

[light scribing :)]

Tzviya: not before TPAC

<pkra> thanks, Karen :-)

<scribe> ACTION: Peter to compare MathML tables with HMLT [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/06-dpub-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> 'Peter' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., pkra, plinss).


Markus: anything else about the agenda?

<ivan> ACTION: pkra to compare MathML tables with HTML, and write it up on a wiki page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/06-dpub-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-27 - Compare mathml tables with html, and write it up on a wiki page [on Peter Krautzberger - due 2014-10-13].

Bill: the alignment issue is also important in poetry; so not just for Maths; want it to be seen as a more general alignment

Markus: the agenda is beginning to look stable

…next thing we have

…looking at agenda

…and we will spend time at TPAC with PF

…we have been working with Janina and others to prepare a document

…We thought that we would take some quality time here to look at the document

Content and Markup TF

<ivan> document on the repo

…and ask Tzviya to describe the input she has had from PF

…and from our side, have a firm idea of where we should be when TPAC ends

…regarding the actual work

…and make sure we use time before TPAC to get this [document] published, that would be really great

…we'll look forward to learning more in the next half hour

Tzviya: We have been looking to find a way to do structural HTML

…we are familiar with EPUB structural semantics vocab

…this document includes a proposal to work with PF to create a digpub vocab of a module of ARIA

…and earlier version of doc was shared with Protocols and Formats

…we cleaned up a bit

scribe: mostly linguistic clarity about responsibilities of this group

…than how it fits with ARIA

…and more clearly delineate the benefits of the structural semantics vocab

…I think the intro is pretty clear

…Sorry I just sent out the doc

…historically this has been a problem to provide accessible content

…and to create HTML content that is reusable and easy to write

…So what we hope to accomplish is to sit down with PF WG to work through issues

…Setting up this voca; taking look at existing @ vocab; sort out what needs to be there; duplicates

…tags that are associated

…and then we will…there is a lot of work

…needs to have an exact mapping to technologies; to each of these tags

…if I say "chapter" I need to define, what behavior that iplies


…there is an existing set of terms defined by IDPF

…list of 200 terms

…we may need to winnow that down

…but make sure we have a clear definitation of those terms

…hopefully have marching orders to do that out of TPAC

…and write it up in the ARIA style

…here's what it means; here's how it works

dkaplan: I have feedback about the document

…should I bring it up now, or is this more of a structural conversation?

Tzviya: If brief, yes; otherwise, I will take email comments on GitHub

Deborah: ok, I'll send on GitHub

ivan: two things

…one is that it's my understanding

…if we do not define assistive technology for a particular term

…then the enclosed tag is valid

…if we do not define for each and every 200 terms

…for assistive technologies, that is sort of ok?

Tzviya: I'll let Markus answer

Markus: that's the idea, yes

…these 200 terms may be a misleading thing

…One of problems we struggled with in IDPF vocab

…is core set

…of domain-agnostic terms everyone can recognize

…but also have domains...

…we have engaged with educational publishers who want to have hundreds of their terms recognized

…Twofold; a publishing vocabulalry

…a core set of common terms

…and then this unfinished space, called distributed extensitbility

…the ideal solution

…we would have to embrace core common terms and other domains

…what you just asked is critical

…If assistive tech encounters a term it does not recognize, then it is not a major issue

Ivan: that is very important

…I have a second, different question

…Who will "own" this specification?

…on the one hand, we have to have a clear consensus of the user community

…which means that the terms themselves should be defined by IDPF

…on the other hand, I assume PF wants to have that as a rec coming from PF

…to reinforce its validity for HTML

…I am not sure how this whole thing will play out in practice

scribe: I would be very concerned if the definition of all the terms is in the hands exclusively of PF

…we need IDPF

Markus: I think it has been the common pre-conception that this ARIA @ will be published under W3C IP process

…it wants to become part of ARIA

…whether terms and conditions are in line or external has not been decided yet

…we need to figure out how to do it

…if we duplicate a subset in @ space, we would have synchronization issues

…if we have PF module to subset elsewhere, it could be cleaner

…not sure if it would lead to IP issues

Ivan: That is not a problem in case of IDPF

…process is such that it should not create a problem

…i don't think we need to decide this here

…If we could find a way to get 3-4 people sitting down, like Ralph, to have a clean setup for processes that would not lead to problems later

Tzviya: This is also a question that Rich asked me

Ivan: So involving Ralph and Ian during one of the lunch periods on Friday is a good idea

Markus: clarify; document would be published under W3C IP

Tzviya: he asked about clarification of IP and stated partnership with IDPF

Ivan: As an IG, we are not chartered to produce formal recommendations

…we an participate in the work, but it has to be published as a recommendation by a Working Group

…all the iP issues

…Wiley, formally should join

Tzviya: we did on Friday

<Bill_Kasdorf> great news about Wiley joining!!

Ivan: We need a clear space for IDPF

Markus: And we need to discuss the vocab terms

…in terms of a document

…we need to figure out how to squeeze that part in

…don't need to decide that now, but answer those questions in the document

…that IDPF is in the doc and is contributing its vocab in more detail

…that is one thing

Markus: I have a question

…Chapter two

…about assistive technologies

…one of the eye openers I had working with educational publishers is the importance of semantic richness

…@ time and repurposing time

…I don't think we have authoring and repurposing

…should we add that?

Tzviya: That makes sense

Markus: Maybe remove 1-5 to clear space and add a section 4

…in-house processing or processing behaviors

Tzviya: all right

Markus: Anything else you would like to bring up?

Tzviya: the meeting we have with PF is about broader accessibility issues

…Deborah, you had a comment, and also Charles is on phone…other issues?

Deborah: sure

…my issue was about… in the document

…section on improved navigation, locating print artifacts

…I was thinking about ability to ignore print artifacts

…sometimes those artifacts can get loud and distracting

…you should be able to ignore them, too

Markus: page numbers for example

Tzviya: ok

Markus: Anything else?

Deborah: That was my initial feedback

…I think this conversation has been very useful to me on how to re-read this document for feedback

…about how it will be used

…this has been helpful

Markus: Good, please keep it coming

Tzviya: yes, this is not final by any means

Markus: Meant to be a joint statement

Tzviya: I need to pass these comments along to PF, but not today due to my schedule

…I will get it to them soon

Markus: Anyone else?

…if no more questions, we can end early

Markus: Ivan mentioned specifying IP expectations

…if there is a standard way to express that, please let us know

Ivan: not sure I understand what you are asking

Tzviya: Rich commented if this is work of joint TF, we need to explain how content was generated

Ivan: you mean the document you produce right now?

Tzviya: yes

Ivan: that will be a Note; not so relevant

…but eventual module needs to be published by WG

Markus: yes, and we wanted to suggest stating that clearly

Ivan: We make it clear that goal is to produce a rec published by PF WG

…with contributions from this IG

…then that by itself is clear

…and it comes under IP protection of PF WG

…does not require a pre-defined statement

<Zakim> azaroth, you wanted to ask about next week, as holiday in US

Tzviya: A week from today is a holiday

Rob: yes

Markus: holiday again!

Tzviya: It's for Christopher Columbus

Rob: Will we have call or not?

<dauwhe> http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day

<Ayla-Stein> How can you discover a continent that already has people there? We should meet in protest!

Markus: I am leaning towards doing it?

<Ayla-Stein> j/k

<Ayla-Stein> but not really

Ivan: I need to send regrets but for other reasons

<clapierre> regrets as well I will be out of town.

@: Office is open, but sending regrets

Markus: Let's do the call

<azaroth> Regrets from me as well

<Bert> (Possible regrets from me also. Not sure yet.)

…but we may change our minds end of week

…Thanks everyone

…talk to you hopefully next week

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: pkra to compare MathML tables with HTML, and write it up on a wiki page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/06-dpub-minutes.html#action02]
[End of minutes]

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