Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

29 Sep 2014


See also: IRC log


Alan Stearns (Stearns), Charles LaPierre (clapierre), Frederick Hirsch (fjh), Dave Cramer (dauwhe), Markus Gylling (mgylling),  Deborah Kaplan (dkaplan3), Mike Miller (MikeMiller), Shinyu Murakami (murakami), Peter Kreutzberger (pkra),  Ivan Herman (Ivan), David Stroup (david_stroup),  Bill Kasdorf (Bill_Kasdorf), Bert Bos (Bert) , Ben De Meester (bjdmeest), Paul Belfanti (pBelfanti), Laura Dawson (dawson), Madi Solomon (madi), Liam Quin (liam), Tzviya Siegman (Tzviya), Liza Daly (liza), Thierry Michel (tmichel), Tim Cole (TimCole), Ayla Stein (astein)
Luc Audrain, Graham Bell, Phil Madans, Vladimir Levantovsky, Rob Sanderson, Julie Morris
Markus Gylling
Dave Cramer


<trackbot> Date: 29 September 2014

<scribe> scribenick: dauwhe

<mgylling> correct link for last weeks minutes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Sep/0077.html

mgylling: discussing last week's minutes
... any objections?
... minutes approved.
... two things on agenda
... PF collaboration will have to wait
... update on STEM from Peter
... then TPAC agenda

pkra: hammer out a richer questionairre based on early interviews
... I've summarized the interviews but haven't published yet
... hope to finish by end of month
... it has been interesting... the first four have given me a very different angle
... those four were forward-thinking, cutting edge

mgylling: we're curious about observations

pkra: suprised by [a] big focus on authoring side and what OWP can do there
... it would be better world if web was much more involved in authoring
... contenteditable is an issue
... how to create print representation of web doc

Bill_Kasdorf: can you summarize who these people were?

pkra: Peter Murray-Rust who was a researcher
... came up with CML, does data mining
... Fernando ???, working on scientific computation, ipython notebook format
... machine readable but also creates human readable
... Dan Whaley from hypothesis, working on annotations
... Ian ??? from eLife, a publisher of open-access journal

<liam> [ Peter Murray-Rust ]

<liza> ((Sounds OK to me)

pkra: themes were need for community building
... community group for reasearchers and authors
... this IG to educate about technologies
... the third big theme was about PDF
... something everyone has to deal with
... pdf creation, being able to use pdf better in web context, tools like PDFjs
... another issue is peer review and search

mgylling: thanks for summary. Has there been discussion of native rendering of STEM content?

pkra: not so much.
... so little agreement standards that could lead to native rendering that community group is needed
... they felt its too early
... there's dismay at static content
... when author comes with SVG, but publisher asks for TIFF
... so people are cautious, focusing on baby steps
... it's not like MathML, where people are already using it

Bill_Kasdorf: STEM publishing is one of the earliest sectors to go digital
... they did that using PDF
... for them, digital = PDF
... that whole population takes that for granted, its a limiting factor

<ivan> +1 to Bill's comment

Bill_Kasdorf: the people were very progressive, so startling to hear about PDF

pkra: this came up in positive way. 2 problems: we have an output problem, our users want PDF
... the first problem is Word.
... JATS is the other issue
... then you have to generate PDF out of this
... if input is HTML in future, and out put HTML in future, then pipeline could be simpler

Bill_Kasdorf: I'm aware of some initiatives to move in HTML direction, but can't name them right now.
... the tide is turning

tzviya: did you provide a link to doc?

pkra: still working on it

tzviya: until recently, primary output has been PDF but lots of pubs are looking at HTML now
... CUP, for example, has option to look at both HTML and PDF
... we're seeing that more and more in STEM world
... which means we need math rendering!!!
... this is becoming urgent.

Bill_Kasdorf: this literature is distributed through hosting services. All have JATS at their core, but they all have HTML 'cause they're online.

tzviya: not everything is a journal
... i've been converting STEM books to EPUB
... but because of math I'm having trouble, we've done them as images but this can't continue

mgylling: you mentioned MathML. Is it a more generic problem? Chemistry, electronics, other subjects with graphic needs?

tzviya: it's a broader problem. Chemistry is worse.
... physics is an issue, and even advanced math

mgylling: on what level should we attack the problem?

tzviya: mathml isn't a quick win

ivan: in metadata task force, talking mostly about ONIX and metadata in ONIX
... worth talking to STEM folks about the metadata that community uses, which may be different
... from traditional publishers
... STEM publishing includes conference proceedings

<Bill_Kasdorf> STEM metadata is dominated by CrossRef deposits and metadata required by the hosting services--not typically ONIX

ivan: all the ID mechanisms are different, but we need different metadata structure than for whole book

<tzviya> +1

ivan: we should not let go of this issue

Bill_Kasdorf: many stem publishers view metadata as solved problem. they use crossref and their hosting services
... also fundref
... onix only on the book side

<TimCole> +q

<Bill_Kasdorf> there is an ONIX for serials but it is less ubiquitous than Onix for Books

pkra: other standards also came up, but people are cautious. Even the author of CML is cautious about a standard
... also talked about linked data

TimCole: ivan mentioned metadata issues
... there was a report about the important about describing metadata at equation level
... for discovery and linking
... derived from MathML
... searching for math equations or linking to them
... digitizing renaissance books with emblems, there's a vocabulary for defining them, need to apply to individual emblem
... if stuff is in PDF, it's harder to find and you can't properly describe the metadata

<pbelfanti> Must drop, apologies

pkra: tools like PDF.js allow people to mix PDF and HTML

mgylling: how many more interviews?

pkra: I want to do 3 or 4 more
... plus work on the questionairres

mgylling: any advice for Peter?

Bill_Kasdorf: make sure you have representative sample of types of people that you interview
... the first interviews are cutting-edge folks, but may not be representative of average scholarly publisher
... the questionairre is intended to do that

pkra: I agree.
... "strong opinions" is an understatement :)

<astearns> :)

pkra: I will follow your advice

mgylling: any more questions for peter?

<mgylling> TPAC agenda is here: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC2014-F2F

TPAC agenda

<mgylling> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC2014-F2F#Participation

mgylling: I will lean on Tzviya, who has been running calls
... who will attend in person, who will attend virtually

<ivan> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2014/registrants#DP

mgylling: did we discuss agenda items in the last two calls?

tzviya: I'm going to pull up minutes

<tzviya> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Sep/0001.html

tzviya: we had a rough sketch of the meetings

<tzviya> http://www.w3.org/2014/09/08-dpub-minutes.html

tzviya: want to talk with PF

CSS has offered to meet on open time Monday

mgylling: if our primary topic is pagination and box tree

<astearns> Peter Linss is registered for AC/Testing on Thurs and Fri

mgylling: we could be looking at spending a full half day on pagination both internally and with CSS

<Bert> (I'll be there the whole week, too.)

mgylling: this is both requirements doc for DOM pagination, CSS box tree, and publishers requirements
... for IG's own agenda
... 25% to pagination cluster (req, css, dom) but we don't know when yet. Waiting to hear from dauwhe on getting CSS participation
... I'll put tentatively on Thursday morning pagination
... we can move later
... regarding PF / a11y / role

tzviya: I can reach out to PF folks
... focused on integrating DPUB terminology

dkaplan3: a joint session could be useful, we'd want to talk about what form that would take

tzviya: not sure how much time we should take

mgylling: if we get meeting with PF, would be good to summarize our next steps

tzviya: we might work with people other than PF

dkaplan3: we have meeting with WAI and mobile team to talk about road map mobile used
... might help us avoid some dead ends

mgylling: what other themes for IG meetings?

tzviya: metadata

Bill_Kasdorf: we now have github draft up for discussion
... I'll be there thursday friday
... madi can't attend

madi: I'll try to call in, depending on the time

ivan: what times would work for you

madi: earliest meetings are better

<TimCole> for metadata, I will only be there Thursday and would like to hear about metadata that day if possible

mgylling: I'll put metadata on friday morning
... do we have clear deliverable here?

Bill_Kasdorf: want to get discussion going on list based on starter draft on github
... designed to stimulate discussion
... would like clarity on what we're working towards

ivan: 2 things: 1: github doc will eventually become publication, but it also includes recommendations for further work
... and that further work may happen as part of the IGs work for the coming year
... it's both document and planning

Bill_Kasdorf: let a week or two go by for discussion, then I can provide an agenda for that discussion
... maybe by the 13th

mgylling: pagination, metadata, possibly a11y, what else?

tzviya: having update on STEM

mgylling: update on STEM task force?

tzviya: annotations work is now in its own group

<fjh> Annotation WG will have meeing on Tuesday at TPAC

ivan: we should publish annotations use cases as note, then close task force
... this is on Rob's shoulders
... the annotation use cases doc should be closed, and not be on agenda any more
... we don't need f2f time for this

mgylling: do we need F2F time for STEM?

pkra: I cannot make it, can dial in
... there was nothing planned.

<astearns> have to drop for my next meeting, sorry

pkra: might connect with math group

tzviya: we can get update at weekly meetings

mgylling: we can certainly use F2F time if it will help
... agenda now beginning to appear on wiki

ivan: update on chinareq
... lot of overlap with i18n
... also in korean
... discussions with Indian community about typesetting requirements
... we should discuss with Richard Ishida

mgylling: can we put placeholder?

ivan: I'll check with them, if you ask nicely

<clapierre> Meeting with SVG?

mgylling: pagination, metadata, i18n, possibly a11y, possibly STEM

tzviya: we have talked about HTML WG about validation issues but not ready yet
... Charles had talked about meeting with SVG group

<Bill_Kasdorf> I changed On: Peter and Madi to On: Bill and Madi for Friday morning metadata session at TPAC

clapierre: I don't know what the status is there

<Bill_Kasdorf> . . . in the agenda on the wiki

clapierre: since they're there we could find out about a11y in SVG

mgylling: anyone here on that group? I'll take the action

<scribe> ACTION: mgylling to reach out to SVG about a11y [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/09/29-dpub-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-26 - Reach out to svg about a11y [on Markus Gylling - due 2014-10-06].

mgylling: if you have more agenda items, let us know
... sorry to be over time.

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: mgylling to reach out to SVG about a11y [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/09/29-dpub-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.138 (CVS log)
$Date: 2014-09-30 08:35:22 $