See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 29 September 2014
<scribe> scribenick: dauwhe
<mgylling> correct link for last weeks minutes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Sep/0077.html
mgylling: discussing last week's minutes
... any objections?
... minutes approved.
... two things on agenda
... PF collaboration will have to wait
... update on STEM from Peter
... then TPAC agenda
pkra: hammer out a richer questionairre
based on early interviews
... I've summarized the interviews but haven't published yet
... hope to finish by end of month
... it has been interesting... the first four have given me a very
different angle
... those four were forward-thinking, cutting edge
mgylling: we're curious about observations
pkra: suprised by [a] big focus on authoring
side and what OWP can do there
... it would be better world if web was much more involved in authoring
... contenteditable is an issue
... how to create print representation of web doc
Bill_Kasdorf: can you summarize who these people were?
pkra: Peter Murray-Rust who was a researcher
... came up with CML, does data mining
... Fernando ???, working on scientific computation, ipython notebook
format
... machine readable but also creates human readable
... Dan Whaley from hypothesis, working on annotations
... Ian ??? from eLife, a publisher of open-access journal
<liam> [ Peter Murray-Rust ]
<liza> ((Sounds OK to me)
pkra: themes were need for community
building
... community group for reasearchers and authors
... this IG to educate about technologies
... the third big theme was about PDF
... something everyone has to deal with
... pdf creation, being able to use pdf better in web context, tools
like PDFjs
... another issue is peer review and search
mgylling: thanks for summary. Has there been discussion of native rendering of STEM content?
pkra: not so much.
... so little agreement standards that could lead to native rendering
that community group is needed
... they felt its too early
... there's dismay at static content
... when author comes with SVG, but publisher asks for TIFF
... so people are cautious, focusing on baby steps
... it's not like MathML, where people are already using it
Bill_Kasdorf: STEM publishing is one of the
earliest sectors to go digital
... they did that using PDF
... for them, digital = PDF
... that whole population takes that for granted, its a limiting factor
<ivan> +1 to Bill's comment
Bill_Kasdorf: the people were very progressive, so startling to hear about PDF
pkra: this came up in positive way. 2
problems: we have an output problem, our users want PDF
... the first problem is Word.
... JATS is the other issue
... then you have to generate PDF out of this
... if input is HTML in future, and out put HTML in future, then
pipeline could be simpler
Bill_Kasdorf: I'm aware of some initiatives
to move in HTML direction, but can't name them right now.
... the tide is turning
tzviya: did you provide a link to doc?
pkra: still working on it
tzviya: until recently, primary output has
been PDF but lots of pubs are looking at HTML now
... CUP, for example, has option to look at both HTML and PDF
... we're seeing that more and more in STEM world
... which means we need math rendering!!!
... this is becoming urgent.
Bill_Kasdorf: this literature is distributed through hosting services. All have JATS at their core, but they all have HTML 'cause they're online.
tzviya: not everything is a journal
... i've been converting STEM books to EPUB
... but because of math I'm having trouble, we've done them as images
but this can't continue
mgylling: you mentioned MathML. Is it a more generic problem? Chemistry, electronics, other subjects with graphic needs?
tzviya: it's a broader problem. Chemistry is
worse.
... physics is an issue, and even advanced math
mgylling: on what level should we attack the problem?
tzviya: mathml isn't a quick win
ivan: in metadata task force, talking mostly
about ONIX and metadata in ONIX
... worth talking to STEM folks about the metadata that community uses,
which may be different
... from traditional publishers
... STEM publishing includes conference proceedings
<Bill_Kasdorf> STEM metadata is dominated by CrossRef deposits and metadata required by the hosting services--not typically ONIX
ivan: all the ID mechanisms are different, but we need different metadata structure than for whole book
<tzviya> +1
ivan: we should not let go of this issue
Bill_Kasdorf: many stem publishers view
metadata as solved problem. they use crossref and their hosting services
... also fundref
... onix only on the book side
<TimCole> +q
<Bill_Kasdorf> there is an ONIX for serials but it is less ubiquitous than Onix for Books
pkra: other standards also came up, but
people are cautious. Even the author of CML is cautious about a standard
... also talked about linked data
TimCole: ivan mentioned metadata issues
... there was a report about the important about describing metadata at
equation level
... for discovery and linking
... derived from MathML
... searching for math equations or linking to them
... digitizing renaissance books with emblems, there's a vocabulary for
defining them, need to apply to individual emblem
... if stuff is in PDF, it's harder to find and you can't properly
describe the metadata
<pbelfanti> Must drop, apologies
pkra: tools like PDF.js allow people to mix PDF and HTML
mgylling: how many more interviews?
pkra: I want to do 3 or 4 more
... plus work on the questionairres
mgylling: any advice for Peter?
Bill_Kasdorf: make sure you have
representative sample of types of people that you interview
... the first interviews are cutting-edge folks, but may not be
representative of average scholarly publisher
... the questionairre is intended to do that
pkra: I agree.
... "strong opinions" is an understatement :)
<astearns> :)
pkra: I will follow your advice
mgylling: any more questions for peter?
<mgylling> TPAC agenda is here: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC2014-F2F
<mgylling> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC2014-F2F#Participation
mgylling: I will lean on Tzviya, who has
been running calls
... who will attend in person, who will attend virtually
<ivan> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2014/registrants#DP
mgylling: did we discuss agenda items in the last two calls?
tzviya: I'm going to pull up minutes
<tzviya> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Sep/0001.html
tzviya: we had a rough sketch of the meetings
<tzviya> http://www.w3.org/2014/09/08-dpub-minutes.html
tzviya: want to talk with PF
CSS has offered to meet on open time Monday
mgylling: if our primary topic is pagination and box tree
<astearns> Peter Linss is registered for AC/Testing on Thurs and Fri
mgylling: we could be looking at spending a full half day on pagination both internally and with CSS
<Bert> (I'll be there the whole week, too.)
mgylling: this is both requirements doc for
DOM pagination, CSS box tree, and publishers requirements
... for IG's own agenda
... 25% to pagination cluster (req, css, dom) but we don't know when
yet. Waiting to hear from dauwhe on getting CSS participation
... I'll put tentatively on Thursday morning pagination
... we can move later
... regarding PF / a11y / role
tzviya: I can reach out to PF folks
... focused on integrating DPUB terminology
dkaplan3: a joint session could be useful, we'd want to talk about what form that would take
tzviya: not sure how much time we should take
mgylling: if we get meeting with PF, would be good to summarize our next steps
tzviya: we might work with people other than PF
dkaplan3: we have meeting with WAI and
mobile team to talk about road map mobile used
... might help us avoid some dead ends
mgylling: what other themes for IG meetings?
tzviya: metadata
Bill_Kasdorf: we now have github draft up
for discussion
... I'll be there thursday friday
... madi can't attend
madi: I'll try to call in, depending on the time
ivan: what times would work for you
madi: earliest meetings are better
<TimCole> for metadata, I will only be there Thursday and would like to hear about metadata that day if possible
mgylling: I'll put metadata on friday
morning
... do we have clear deliverable here?
Bill_Kasdorf: want to get discussion going
on list based on starter draft on github
... designed to stimulate discussion
... would like clarity on what we're working towards
ivan: 2 things: 1: github doc will
eventually become publication, but it also includes recommendations for
further work
... and that further work may happen as part of the IGs work for the
coming year
... it's both document and planning
Bill_Kasdorf: let a week or two go by for
discussion, then I can provide an agenda for that discussion
... maybe by the 13th
mgylling: pagination, metadata, possibly a11y, what else?
tzviya: having update on STEM
mgylling: update on STEM task force?
tzviya: annotations work is now in its own group
<fjh> Annotation WG will have meeing on Tuesday at TPAC
ivan: we should publish annotations use
cases as note, then close task force
... this is on Rob's shoulders
... the annotation use cases doc should be closed, and not be on agenda
any more
... we don't need f2f time for this
mgylling: do we need F2F time for STEM?
pkra: I cannot make it, can dial in
... there was nothing planned.
<astearns> have to drop for my next meeting, sorry
pkra: might connect with math group
tzviya: we can get update at weekly meetings
mgylling: we can certainly use F2F time if
it will help
... agenda now beginning to appear on wiki
ivan: update on chinareq
... lot of overlap with i18n
... also in korean
... discussions with Indian community about typesetting requirements
... we should discuss with Richard Ishida
mgylling: can we put placeholder?
ivan: I'll check with them, if you ask nicely
<clapierre> Meeting with SVG?
mgylling: pagination, metadata, i18n, possibly a11y, possibly STEM
tzviya: we have talked about HTML WG about
validation issues but not ready yet
... Charles had talked about meeting with SVG group
<Bill_Kasdorf> I changed On: Peter and Madi to On: Bill and Madi for Friday morning metadata session at TPAC
clapierre: I don't know what the status is there
<Bill_Kasdorf> . . . in the agenda on the wiki
clapierre: since they're there we could find out about a11y in SVG
mgylling: anyone here on that group? I'll take the action
<scribe> ACTION: mgylling to reach out to SVG about a11y [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/09/29-dpub-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-26 - Reach out to svg about a11y [on Markus Gylling - due 2014-10-06].
mgylling: if you have more agenda items, let
us know
... sorry to be over time.