Social Web Working Group Teleconference

26 Aug 2014


Sandro, aaronpk, +1.559.707.aaaa, Hhalpin, Arnaud, tantek, +44.783.406.aabb, deiu, rhiaro, jtauber, oshepherd, elf-pavlik, tommorris, bblfish, MattMarum, ShaneHudson, jasnell, bret, wilkie


<jasnell-github> [13w3c-socialwg-activitystreams] 15jasnell pushed 1 new commit to 06master: 02http://git.io/nU1XXg

<jasnell-github> 13w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/06master 147d716a3 15James M Snell: editorial nits

<jasnell-github> [13w3c-socialwg-activitystreams] 15jasnell pushed 1 new commit to 06gh-pages: 02http://git.io/AGHmpw

<jasnell-github> 13w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/06gh-pages 14cc8bbfe 15James M Snell: editorial nits

<aaronpk> where is Zakim?

<harry> trackbot this is social

<trackbot> Sorry, harry, I don't understand 'trackbot this is social'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.

<Arnaud> no worries, Zakim will come

<wilkie> hi

<harry> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Date: 26 August 2014

<Arnaud> there you go

<oshepherd> SOCIG?

I'm on the top of the list, can scribe

<aaronpk> wow look at all the robots go

<Arnaud> harry, that's first on the agenda

<Arnaud> hmm, I wonder whether this is going to mean we won't get the right tracker associated with the call

<Arnaud> the call hasn't started yet :)

<Loqi> sandro: tantek left you a message on 8/24 at 3:38pm: next time you're around, come on over to #indiewebcamp on Freenode and let's chat IndieWebCamp Cambridge/MIT venue details with caseorganic!

<Arnaud> yeah, we got the calls mixed up with IG: https://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar#s_6460

<jasnell> on the phone but dropping off irc

<oshepherd> Hmm, Zakim and me are disagreeing

<oshepherd> OK, time to use my Skype world minutes I guess

<cmhobbs> what time is the call? isn't it a little early?

<Tsyesika> uh another call?

<Tsyesika> this isn't the usual time?

<harry> Note that due to complaints, we now have the call at 7:00 CET for Europeans. Otherwise it was 10:00 PM CET for Europeans

<Shane> Zakin, ??P13 is Shane

<tantek> Tsyesika see /social#Telecon

Zakim ??P8 is me

<harry> I'd just hold a sec, people are still dialing in

<oshepherd> Zakim: + +44.783.406.aabb is me

<sandro> james_snell: I'm on the call, but not IRC

<caseorganic> Hello - I'm on the call

<oshepherd> Zakim: +44.783.406.aabb is me

<harry> Zakim unmute aaaa

<jtauber> thanks

<oshepherd> (finally!)

<harry> scribe: rhiaro

<nicolagreco> how can I get into the call?

<elf-pavlik> elf-pavlik

<Shane> I'm on the call but only able to half pay attention today

<bblfish> IPCaller is me

<ShaneHudson> I don't see my name on the list

<tantek> scribenick rhiaro

<ShaneHudson> I've got two IRC clients running, sorry. Both are me :)

<tantek> scribe: rhiaro

<deiu> https://www.w3.org/wiki/IRC-people has a list of nicks and names (please add yourself)

Arnaud: Welcome everyone

<harry> If anyone has questions about Invited Expert status, please ping me. It's possible we have missed a few applications, there was a bug in the set-up of the WG

Arnaud: This is the first formal call. Non-members should join the WG

<harry> The only person I have in my queue is Markus from Hydra.

Arnaud: Next telecon 2nd Sept
... Time on the doodle poll is Boston time
... Sticking with Boston time through daylight savings

<harry> Re IE status caseorganic, we'll give you a 6 month IE is as standard for a possible W3C member.

<tantek> harry, I vouch for caseorganic

Arnaud: Tracking of actions and issues with the tracker
... We could use github issue tracker? Up to WG

<sandro> Is there a simple way to view all the people's pictures linked from https://www.w3.org/wiki/IRC-people ?

Arnaud: advises to use W3C tracker only

<aaronpk> sandro: the w3c mediawiki blocks hotlinked images, so not unless that setting is changed

Arnaud: Shouldn't split attention over too many different tools

<tantek> I think if a spec author wants to use github for their spec, and github issues for their spec issues, that should be ok.

Arnaud: tracker allows creating and tracking states of issues; anyone can raise an issue

<tantek> However I'm ok with "Tracker" being the default for group-level administrivia etc. issues

<tommorris> tracker++

<Loqi> tracker has 1 karma

Arnaud: WG keeps an eye on raised issues, but isn't committed to dealing with them. Decide if they're important to tackle.

<harry> For the beginning of a WG I think tracker is fine for WG-level issues

<harry> for specs, folks tend to use github or bugzilla, but we don't have specs yet

Arnaud: Advantage of using the tracker is the trackbot

<sandro> trackbot, help

<trackbot> Please see <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.

Arnaud: trackbot automatically assigns actions, and close issues etc

tantek: specs and spec-specific issues should be on github, easier for spec editor
... spec editing is a lot of work

<jasnell> https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams

<tantek> what sandro said exactly

sandro: both trackers in parallel

tommorris: github allows closing of issues to issues themselves, to help with working out how spec evolved

Arnaud: So smaller issues can be handled with github, major issues with w3c tracker as it's well integrated with other tools

<tantek> to be clear, I myself do not use github for spec editing (I prefer wiki), but I know others do (e.g. jasnell ) and I have seen github spec editors use github issues quite efficiently and nicely

<tommorris> and if one uses the wiki, using the wiki for issues is sensible.

<harry> I have an open action re the relationship between OWF CLAs and W3C RFF with Ian and Wendy Seltzer

<jasnell> Will be right back

jasnell had action to find out who contributed to AS 2.0 Spec. It's on the wiki

<tantek> rhiaro - that was tantek

<Arnaud> zakim james is jasnell

<tantek> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams#History

jasnell: All material contributions made by people already in WG, so should be covered
... The one person listed as needing to fill out the form wasn't correct after all
... If any more issues come up, will investigate

<harry> Just quick note - it *likely* clears up the IPR issue, but I want a quick check from Wendy.

Arnaud: Close previously discussed action re: AS2.0 spec
... Action for all - associate yourself with ircpeople page

<tantek> see http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/today

Arnaud: how long to keep that open?

tantek: We can close that now everyone has been reminded
... Most people have done it

<bret> joining the call :)

Arnaud: Action to send out invite for new meetings closed

<bblfish> where does one put the icons?

ActivityStreams 2.0

Arnaud: jasnell has put the spec on github

<harry> +1 first public WD by TPAC

Arnaud: First public working draft by TPAC

<oshepherd> +1

<tommorris> bblfish: just a pointer to a JPG or PNG on the web

<tantek> +1 to first public WD by TPAC

<jtauber> +1

<bblfish> but where?

<MattMarum> +1

<oshepherd> At least for the AS2 core doc, anyhow

<aaronpk> bblfish: usually people link to an image that's on their own site

<harry> The spec is here in HTML: http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2.html

<bblfish> but where do I put the link?

Arnaud: For those not familiar with w3c process, first step is to publish a public working draft of a deliverable. Can be changed.

<harry> Any questions?

<deiu> Maybe make it a proposal?

<aaronpk> bblfish: copy a line from this page and change the details to your own https://www.w3.org/wiki/IRC-people

<Arnaud> PROPOSED: Aim to publish ActivityStreams 2.0 FPWD by TPAC

<sandro> +1 seems reasonable to me, as a goal!

<deiu> +1

<jasnell> +1

<ShaneHudson> +1

<oshepherd> +1

<MattMarum> +1

<harry> +1

<jtauber> +1


<caseorganic> +1

<aaronpk> +1

<tommorris> +1

<tommorris> yep, "-1 trolling" doesn't count.

<Arnaud> RESOLVED: Aim to publish ActivityStreams 2.0 FPWD by TPAC

<ShaneHudson> Is the conference code still 2625? I got thrown off the call and it won't let me back in

Arnaud: Proposal to split spec into core parts and vocabularies

jasnell: Split documents on github, can roll back
... In order to simplify core document. Feedback was it's too complex with too many optional parts

<ShaneHudson> That's better, thanks

jasnell: Optional parts are in vocabs part

<jasnell-github> [13w3c-socialwg-activitystreams] 15tommorris opened pull request #9: fixing tantek's name (06master...06patch-1) 02http://git.io/HCFAiw

<tantek> is it possible to implement one without the other?

jasnell: Take a look at the repo now and comment from there
... Can implement basic AS functionality from core document
... Vocab document provides field names, but you don't *have* to use them

<Arnaud> PROPOSAL: Split document into two documents: core and vocab

<jasnell> +1

<oshepherd> +1

<MattMarum> +1

<jtauber> +1

<ShaneHudson> +1

<sandro> +0 sounds fine, but I haven't really thought about it

+0 I don't know..

<deiu> +1

<tommorris> +0 agree with sandro

<harry> +1

<aaronpk> +0 same

<tantek> +1 per deferring to editor's discretion at assessing community consensus on this

<bblfish> ok updated my picture

Arnaud: If at some point someone thinks this doesn't make sense, we can undo it

<Arnaud> RESOLVED: Split document into two documents: core and vocab

Arnaud: We can reconsider things. (But not just because you didn't get the result you want)
... Discussion about url / id / self

<Arnaud> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-socialweb/2014Aug/0042.html

jasnell: In AS 1.0, no formal notion of links. Media links. url property and other ways of linking to other content, but no defined model. Led to interop conflicts in different implementations. Some poeple used media links, iris, urls, inconsistently
... In 2.0 link values have been formalised to add consistency
... Aligning AS to link relations model

<tommorris> RFC 5988 - http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5988

jasnell: Creates redundancy in some field definitions; self, canonical, url
... url had a poorly defined definition in AS 1. Goal is simplification.
... and consistency.

<oshepherd> I'll note that the problem with url in 1.0 is that it reuses the "url" name for different things in different places, sometimes in conflicting ways

jasnell: Current version of the spec on github has current thoughts

<aaronpk> link for reference: https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams

jasnell: Take a look at the spec, section on link resolution, and offer feedback.

<tantek> isn't this issue already in github issues?

<tommorris> issue is at https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/5

<tantek> right, we already have a permalink for this issue, with existing discussion and history

<sandro> issue: what should we do about https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/5

<trackbot> Created ISSUE-1 - What should we do about https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/5. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/1/edit>.

<tantek> I am against forking this issue to tracker

<tantek> I propose any more commentary on it to the *existing* issue

<tantek> rather than forking the discussion to w3c

tantek: Already an open issue on github with existing discussion

<aaronpk> agree with tantek

<harry> I'd keep it in github if possible - duplication leads to errors.

<harry> A pointer for tracker to the github error is fine as long as it includes the URI: https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/5

<ShaneHudson> I agree with tantek, but I would have an issue on the tracker that points towards the existing Github issue

<harry> Which is what we have, so I guess we're OK :)

<sandro> close issue-1

<trackbot> Closed issue-1.

<sandro> (oops)

<aaronpk> can we just point to the issue on the wiki so people can find it from this group?

<tommorris> on the issue there, I'd recommend that interested party post comments on the Github tracker

jasnell: if you plan on submitting pull requests to the github repo, please list your github id on the wiki page
... There's a github page on the wiki
... So pull requests can be verified.

<aaronpk> found the github page on the wiki: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Github

bblfish: This type of issue - how to refer to something - there's a whole infrastructure to use already, with work on LDP and JSON-LD. So the solution could/should fit in nicely with everything else
... Use follow your nose. Things in JSON-LD and RDF.

<tommorris> LDP for those who do't know is Linked Data Platform

Arnaud: In general, if people want to make suggestions on how to change the spec, write it down. Email or put it on the wiki, as a proposal for discussion on a call.

<bblfish> https://www.w3.org/wiki/FollowYourNose

<Zakim> tantek, you wanted to add to the discussion about working with existing tools and implementations

<bblfish> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/LinkedData.html

tantek: Agrees with bblfish about looking at existing implementations and tools. There's a broad variety. Incluidng indiewebcamp, where many people are publishing permalinks, using a url field
... draw from other sources of work, for interoperatbility.
... but not insisting on compatibility with anything in particular, as there are a *lot* of things.

Use cases and requirements

<bblfish> yes, but that sounds like a way to make basic issues a constant point of discussion

<jasnell> Suggestion: use wiki to document change proposals and submit pull requests with specific spec changes. Every pull request that is not editorial would be raised as an issue

Arnaud: the IG is chartered to do exploration work and figure out use cases and requirements for social web in general.

<tantek> e.g. http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry which uses http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card for author info and both of which (h-entry and h-card) use a "url" field to indicate permalinks and other profiles/versions.

Arnaud: WG has to develop specs to address use cases and requirements. WG scope is smaller than what the IG tackles. How will we handle this?
... Currently one page under the WG on the wiki. Who is this really owned by? IG refer to it from their wiki page.
... Have a free-for-all phase where people add their own use cases. Then go through an approval phase to choose what to tackle.

<tantek> we also have a lot of these documented and referenced in our charter: http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter.html

<harry> I'm not sure how that works out in W3C ACL space

<harry> but we can make a wiki anyone with a W3C account can edit

<harry> so that should not be a huge problem if people want the use-cases in that shared space.

<tantek> e.g. http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter.html#iwc

jasnell: From IG call last week; focus was to organise into task groups. One focused on use cases; architecture; vocabulary; lisaon with other groups, including this WG
... jasnell is liason role volunteer
... Clarity on timelines on next call.

Arnaud: The IG don't have time constraints. They can come up with any use cases and write them down. WG can't tackle all use cases.

tommorris: Prioritise use cases that are actually used on the web. Seems possible to work around real use cases rather than hypothetical ones.

<tantek> +1 tommorris: use-cases actively *in use* on the web should be prioritized

+1 prioritising in use

<jasnell> Question: can deciding on specific use cases to address be out on the agenda for the tpac meeting?

<jasnell> Gives time between now and then to document and discuss

<tantek> social web - assumes you want to be *social*, and do so *on the web* :)

bblfish: What is the group trying to achieve? Framework for being able to discuss distributed relations between people. Decentralised communication/control. These are basic requirements.
... so social networks are a basic requirement

<tommorris> rhiaro: tantek

tantek: We have the charter. We don't need to reason from the name of the group. Focus on the charter.

<bblfish> User control of personal data: Some users would like to have autonomous control over their own social data, and share their data selectively across various systems. For an example (based on the IndieWeb initiative), a user could host their own blog and use federated status updates to both push and pull their social information across a number of different social networking sites.

tantek: Decide what we're working on based on items in the charter.

<bblfish> from the chater

Arnaud: We can continue this discussion next week

<tantek> thanks bblfish - yes, referencing the charter is my request rather than use of the name of the wg

Arnaud: Important to have use cases as background

<hhalpin> trackbot, meeting adjourned

<trackbot> Sorry, hhalpin, I don't understand 'trackbot, meeting adjourned'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.

<hhalpin> trackbot, end meeting

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Found Scribe: rhiaro
Found Scribe: rhiaro
Inferring ScribeNick: rhiaro
Default Present: Sandro, aaronpk, +1.559.707.aaaa, Hhalpin, Arnaud, tantek, +44.783.406.aabb, deiu, rhiaro, jtauber, oshepherd, elf-pavlik, tommorris, bblfish, MattMarum, ShaneHudson, jasnell, bret, wilkie
Present: Sandro aaronpk +1.559.707.aaaa Hhalpin Arnaud tantek +44.783.406.aabb deiu rhiaro jtauber oshepherd elf-pavlik tommorris bblfish MattMarum ShaneHudson jasnell bret wilkie
Found Date: 26 Aug 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/08/26-social-minutes.html
People with action items: 

WARNING: IRC log location not specified!  (You can ignore this 
warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain 
a link to the original IRC log.)

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