Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

mgylling: scribe is pkra
... discussing the fall activities of task forces
...
... call with PF later today
... previous minutes were approved

mgylling: missing action item for pkra was added to minutes

mgylling: some task forces have not yet update the tracker for achievables
... metadata, a11y
... last week not covered: styling & layout
... establish what can be accomplished in fall

dauwhe much progress on CSS WG.

dauwhe: dropcaps is moving forward
... issues around non-western scripts
... not a lot of feedback on that (yet)
... not necessarily a priority for DPUB since latinrec is the target for DPUB IG

<murakami> http://vivliostyle.com/

dauwhe: murakami start vivliostyle.com
... getting feedback from implementors would be very good
... otherwise, discussions of footnotes
... further progress: CSS regions, CSS page templates
... would like to get more clarity, e.g., IDPF, CSS WG, where this should be going => DPUB IG might be able help
... for template layouts
... PGT spec; making extensions to that (running heads)
... many threads at CSS WG which could use feedback

dauwhe: it's all very powerful stuff for long form content
... discuss if this is a worthy goal

mgylling: how does this vary? Is this active work or stalling?

dauwhe: CSS regions very active, implementations in progress
... CSS page template spec => Allan

astearns: css page template spec. CSS WG open to this cut down version
... doesn't make sense until browsers have paginated view to display these templates
... pushing browser vendors to implement paginated view
... then continue work on spec
... get browsers on board for touch/scrollable version and paginated version

dauwhe: obvious interest in this at IDPF

mgylling: what can we do? Just fleshing out latinrec?

tzviya: it might be helpful to get started for DPUB IG to take a look at what dauwhe and astearns have added
... personally, haven't seen PGT for a year...

dauwhe: in the process of writing up something on regions and page templates, footnotes and running heads

<astearns> css page templates (subset of PGT): http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-page-template/

dauwhe: will appear at level 4
... sketching out problem space
... what we want to do with these tools, here are the properties that we need to achieve these goals

mgylling: how do you see this IG and IDPF help out to get this to move forward? Concrete things, plz.

astearns: 1) start threads or respond to threads on www-style mailing list, showing interest in page templates, footnotes, etc
... CSS WG likes use cases
... if you like paginated view and you have a use case for it then it would be very good to hear about it on the list

mgylling: it would help to point IG to threads when they appear.

astearns: will do.

mgylling: PGT not actively pursued at IDPF at this time
... awaiting CSS improvements
... doesn't make sense to start this on the side
... question: how much is already in CSS?

dauwhe: there are pieces that are not present yet.
... GCPM 4 draft should fill them
... some questions about paginated view in general.
... not sure how much CSS WG has discussed this
... not clear if it should be done more fundamentally / higher up at W3
... W3C
... can have conversations with CSS WG meeting.

ivan: little bit uncertain about having tag is more interested in low-level architecture issues.
... skeptical if they're interested.
... would imagine some sort of a document this group should produce on paginated views in general (good arguments etc)
... get a discussion on the advisory forum
... to discuss this high-level issue with other members
... probably too late for tpac plenary
... but that would be a place for a short presentation
... some sweet&short document on the importance & challenge of paginated view
... have some place where we can start the discussion

astearns: tag might be interested in access to the results of the paginated view.
... results from Opera
... you have no way of telling which content lands on which page
... not useful for our purposes when you don't know where e.g. footnotes landed.

brady_duga: that's what I brought up at last years tpac

mgylling: there's a fundamental spec missing?

ivan: little bit more general
... not just a spec but a "view of the world"

<astearns> spec so far: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-overflow/#paginated-overflow (empty section with three issues) :)

ivan: it might affect several specs
... currently fundamental belief: everything on the web should be done by scrollable view
... this would need to be challenged

dauwhe: second that.

ivan: what can we do?

dauwhe: talk to Peter Linss if there's any tag interest in that.

mgylling: see also link from brady_duga

tzviya: what we came on with epub/edupub -- content that some people called "card" or "page"
... fundamentally a display problem
... would probably have fit before <article> was designed [??? not sure if I caught that right]

brady: as a developer, I look at massive change of bringing in pagination to browsers

scribe: will take years, probably not to every browser on all devices
... as a developer I don't know if I will be able to change to it ever.
... basically the risk of revolutionary change
... would be more in favor of evolutionary change

dauwhe: paginated view certainly exist in ebook readers
... publishers want to be able to say "put this at the top/bottom of the page"
... so I'm not sure what small steps can get us to statements like that

brady_duga: I'm not sure either but I'm sure that if we only describe giant steps, it is doomed.
... if a few platforms support, then it would take too much effort away from platforms that don't have such features

astearns: would be in favor of small steps.
... using JS to break into pages. Or use CSS regions.
... but CSS-Regions was a step too far.
... if you can suggest features that would help move in small steps, I'd love to hear them, I just don't know them

Luc: to add, even in a scrollable window, if we consider the web display is always scrollable, as a publisher we need some information.
... we need that information in scrollable,e.g, footnotes/notes
... in long HTML documents, we need to display more information in the context of the reader, even in scrollable
... need to make running heads and footnotes available
... if I say the web is scrollable only, what do I need to make contextual information available to the reader?

dauwhe: to some degree, you'd have the viewport. But then it might end up as a fixed position in the viewport.

ivan: we should be careful not to run ahead. I fully understand Brady's warning. We've had browser devs fighting over this before -- feature coming to one browser but not the other.
... we still need a document what we would need in an ideal world.
... then we can discuss where to make compromises to get it rolling
... I currently don't know where to go to get information on this.

mgylling: a chapter of latinrec?

ivan: No. A separate document fits better.

dauwhe: +1

mgylling: should we gather common resources to try to collect this document and make this a target for fall?

<astearns> :)

dauwhe: I volunteer. It's at the heart of the issues I want to solve.

<Luc> I'd like to help Dave on this

mgylling: anyone else?

Luc: I volunteer.

tzviya: I can give use cases from STEM.

mgylling: brady_duga's use cases on the wiki (positioning, API stuff)

brady_duga: I volunteer as non-lead.

dauwhe: volunteer to lead.

mgylling: ivan & dauwhe will sort out technical details.

ivan: dauwhe, re task force update; other languages. We have interest from Chinese specialist.
... asked her to join us for a session at tpac.
... more generally, let's have some coordination call before tpac with Richard Ishida, Cindy , i18n group.
... some interest to do the same for Indic languages

<tzviya> I speak and read hebrew (also RTL)

ivan: would be necessary to bring in Arabic and Hebrew

mgylling: we have some specialists for Arabic pagination

ivan: call before tpac?

mgylling: not a lot to say at this point. Should we get something more tangible?

ivan: makes sense but we need to schedule ahead given his time constraints.

mgylling: moving on
... PF meeting later today

ivan: two issues we wanted to discuss with PF
... 1) via Deborah: talk about how a11y task force would work with them. Not 100% sure they can cover everything.
... there is a plan for a call to discuss this long term.
... 2) structural semantics, whether aria-role can be used for what we have in mind in DPUB IG.

personally, 2) is more important since PF is the precise fit

scribe: personally, 2) is more important since PF is the precise fit

mgylling: structural sem / role attribute. We had a small call before summer break.
... where we had preliminary discussions
... which discussion to be had where; task forces etc.
... to summarize, PF open to idea. They have a plan, will be described later.
... joint subgroups etc.
... to develop and maintain extended vocabularies to the role attribute.
... however: main blocking has been HTML5 with its lock-down of roles.
... but a good place to start.

ivan: will mgylling chair?

mgylling: yes, but will be running late. Ivan will start.
... who will attend?
... tcole, luc, tzviya, pkra, ivan, mgylling
... dkaplan3

Dale Curse: I'm McGrawHill accessibility lead

Susan McCullogh: Nook

mgylling: any other business?

ivan: sign up for tpac!

tzviya: is there a preliminary agenda (for DPUB IG)?

<ivan> http://www.w3.org/2014/11/TPAC/

ivan: not yet. the IG has to do this itself.
... see link
... for other groups.

<ivan> trackbot, end telcon