14:03:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dpub
14:03:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/08/25-dpub-irc
14:03:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:03:04 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dpub
14:03:06 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
14:03:06 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 57 minutes
14:03:07 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
14:03:07 <trackbot> Date: 25 August 2014
14:11:42 <dauwhe_> dauwhe_ has joined #dpub
14:15:33 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #dpub
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14:55:16 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has now started
14:55:22 <Zakim> +azaroth
14:55:55 <murakami> murakami has joined #dpub
14:56:10 <mgylling> mgylling has changed the topic to: meeting agenda for 2014-08-25: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Aug/0018.html
14:57:39 <mgylling> zakim, code?
14:57:39 <Zakim> the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), mgylling
14:57:41 <Zakim> +clapierre1
14:58:25 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #dpub
14:58:29 <Zakim> +dauwhe
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14:59:06 <Zakim> +Tzviya
14:59:16 <Zakim> +pkra
14:59:36 <Zakim> +??P26
14:59:40 <Zakim> +??P25
14:59:45 <Zakim> + +1.339.203.aaaa
14:59:51 <murakami> zakim,??P26 is me
14:59:51 <Zakim> +murakami; got it
15:00:02 <mgylling> zakim, ??P25 is me
15:00:02 <Zakim> +mgylling; got it
15:00:18 <dkaplan3> zakim, +1.339.203.aaaa is me
15:00:18 <Zakim> +dkaplan3; got it
15:00:42 <mgylling> zakim, who is here?
15:00:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see azaroth, clapierre1, dauwhe, Tzviya, pkra, murakami, mgylling, dkaplan3
15:00:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see pkra, tzviya, murakami, mgylling, azaroth, dkaplan3, clapierre, dauwhe, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, Karen, ivan, liam, astearns, plinss, trackbot
15:00:47 <Zakim> +Stearns
15:00:51 <Zakim> +??P29
15:00:52 <TimCole> TimCole has joined #dpub
15:01:16 <mgylling> Regrets: Michael Miller, Bill Kasdorf
15:01:26 <brady_duga> brady_duga has joined #dpub
15:01:40 <Zakim> +duga
15:01:45 <Zakim> +TimCole
15:02:06 <dauwhe> Phil Madans is on vacation this week.
15:02:21 <Zakim> -TimCole
15:02:30 <Zakim> +pBelfanti
15:02:53 <pbelfanti> pbelfanti has joined #dpub
15:03:03 <Zakim> +TimCole
15:03:08 <mgylling> zakim, who is here?
15:03:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see azaroth, clapierre1, dauwhe, Tzviya, pkra, murakami, mgylling, dkaplan3, Stearns, ??P29, duga, pBelfanti, TimCole
15:03:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see pbelfanti, brady_duga, TimCole, pkra, tzviya, murakami, mgylling, azaroth, dkaplan3, clapierre, dauwhe, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, Karen, ivan, liam, astearns, plinss,
15:03:10 <Zakim> ... trackbot
15:03:30 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:03:30 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:03:32 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:03:51 <ivan> zakim, drop me
15:03:51 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
15:03:53 <Zakim> -Ivan
15:03:59 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:04:00 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:04:00 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:04:07 <Zakim> +Karen_Myers
15:04:20 <Vlad> Vlad has joined #dpub
15:04:48 <ivan> zakim, drop me
15:04:49 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
15:04:49 <Zakim> -Ivan
15:04:55 <pkra> mgylling: scribe is pkra
15:04:56 <Zakim> +Vlad
15:05:06 <Zakim> +Julie
15:05:17 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:05:17 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:05:18 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:05:25 <Julie> Julie has joined #dpub
15:05:28 <Zakim> +david_stroup
15:05:37 <pkra> ... discussing the fall activities of task forces
15:05:37 <pkra> ...
15:05:42 <pkra> ... call with PF later today
15:05:59 <pkra> ... previous minutes were approved
15:06:01 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:06:04 <fjh> zakim, ipcaller is me
15:06:04 <Zakim> +fjh; got it
15:06:05 <Julie> Julie is at 646 number
15:06:07 <david_stroup> david_stroup has joined #dpub
15:06:21 <pkra> ... missing action item for pkra was added to minutes
15:06:22 <david_stroup> I'm 585-217
15:06:27 <SMc> SMc has joined #dpub
15:06:44 <pkra> ... some task forces have not yet update the tracker for achievables
15:06:48 <pkra> ... metadata, a11y
15:07:14 <pkra> ... last week not covered: styling & layout
15:07:15 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
15:07:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see azaroth, clapierre1, dauwhe, Tzviya, pkra, murakami, mgylling, dkaplan3, Stearns, ??P29, duga, pBelfanti, TimCole, Ivan, Karen_Myers, Vlad, Julie, david_stroup,
15:07:20 <Zakim> ... fjh
15:07:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see SMc, david_stroup, Julie, Vlad, pbelfanti, brady_duga, TimCole, pkra, tzviya, murakami, mgylling, azaroth, dkaplan3, clapierre, dauwhe, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, Karen,
15:07:20 <Zakim> ... ivan, liam, astearns, plinss, trackbot
15:07:33 <pkra> ... establish what can be accomplished in fall
15:07:56 <pkra> dauwhe much progress on CSS WG.
15:08:03 <pkra> ... dropcaps is moving forward
15:08:07 <ldawson> ldawson has joined #dpub
15:08:08 <pkra> ... issues around non-western scripts
15:08:10 <ivan> q+
15:08:18 <pkra> ... not a lot of feedback on that (yet)
15:08:35 <pkra> ... not necessarily a priority for DPUB since latinrec is the target for DPUB IG
15:09:09 <murakami> http://vivliostyle.com/
15:09:23 <pkra> ... murakami start vivliostyle.com
15:09:34 <pkra> ... getting feedback from implementors would be very good
15:09:44 <pkra> ... otherwise, discussions of footnotes
15:09:48 <Zakim> +LauraD
15:10:17 <pkra> ... further progress: CSS regions, CSS page templates
15:10:47 <pkra> ... would like to get more clarity, e.g., IDPF,  CSS WG, where this should be going => DPUB IG might be able help
15:11:01 <pkra> ... for template layouts
15:11:27 <pkra> ... PTG spec; making extensions to that (running heads)
15:12:08 <pkra> ... many threads at CSS WG which could use feedback
15:12:12 <tzviya> PTG/s/PGT
15:12:19 <pkra> ... it's all very powerful stuff for long form content
15:12:25 <ivan> s/PTG/PGT/
15:12:57 <pkra> ... discuss if this is a worthy goal
15:13:15 <tzviya> q+
15:13:22 <pkra> mgylling: how does this vary? Is this active work or stalling?
15:13:38 <pkra> dauwhe: CSS regions very active, implementations in progress
15:13:48 <pkra> ... CSS page template spec => Allan
15:14:06 <pkra> ??? css page template spec. CSS WG open to this cut down version
15:14:20 <pkra> ... doesn't make sense until browsers have paginated view to display these templates
15:14:31 <ivan> s/???/astearns:/
15:14:31 <pkra> ... pushing browser vendors to implement paginated view
15:14:39 <pkra> ... then continue work on spec
15:14:57 <pkra> ... get browsers on board for touch/scrollable version and paginated version
15:14:59 <mgylling> q?
15:15:15 <pkra> dauwhe: obvious interest in this at IDPF
15:15:31 <pkra> mgylling: what can we do? Just fleshing out latinrec?
15:15:31 <mgylling> ack tzviya
15:15:51 <pkra> tzviya: it might be helpful to get started for DPUB IG to take a look at what dauwhe and astearns have added
15:16:03 <pkra> ... personally, haven't seen PGT for a year...
15:16:21 <pkra> dauwhe: in the process of writing up something on regions and page templates, footnotes and running heads
15:16:27 <astearns> css page templates (subset of PGT): http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-page-template/
15:16:34 <pkra> ... will appear at level 4
15:16:41 <pkra> ... sketching out problem space
15:16:56 <pkra> ... what we want to do with these tools, here are the properties that we need to achieve these goals
15:17:20 <pkra> mgylling: how do you see this IG and IDPF help out to get this to move forward? Concrete things, plz.
15:17:48 <pkra> astearns: 1) start threads or respond to threads on www-style mailing list, showing interest in page templates, footnotes, etc
15:17:53 <pkra> ... CSS WG likes use cases
15:18:19 <pkra> ... if you like paginated view and you have a use case for it then it would be very good to hear about it on the list
15:18:41 <pkra> mgylling: it would help to point IG to threads when they appear.
15:18:47 <pkra> astearns: will do.
15:19:06 <pkra> mgylling: PGT not actively pursued at IDPF at this time
15:19:18 <pkra> ... awaiting CSS improvements
15:19:34 <pkra> ... doesn't make sense to start this on the side
15:19:41 <Zakim> +??P8
15:19:55 <Luc> Luc has joined #dpub
15:19:56 <pkra> ... question: how much is already in CSS?
15:19:56 <Zakim> + +1.617.640.aabb
15:20:09 <Luc> Sorry to be late
15:20:09 <pkra> dauwhe: there are pieces that are not present yet.
15:20:16 <pkra> ... GCPM 4 draft should fill them
15:20:39 <pkra> ... some questions about paginated view in general.
15:20:53 <pkra> ... not sure how much CSS WG has discussed this
15:21:12 <pkra> ... not clear if it should be done more fundamentally / higher up at W3
15:21:16 <pkra> ... W3C
15:21:39 <pkra> ... can have conversations with CSS WG meeting.
15:22:06 <pkra> ivan: little bit uncertain about having tag is more interested in low-level architecture issues.
15:22:10 <astearns> q+
15:22:17 <pkra> ... sceptical if they're interested.
15:22:37 <pkra> ... would imagine some sort of a document this group should produce on paginated views in general (good arguments etc)
15:22:47 <pkra> ... get a discussion on the advisory forum
15:22:54 <pkra> ... to discuss this high-level issue with other members
15:23:12 <pkra> ... probably too late for tpac plenary
15:23:25 <pkra> ... but that would be a place for a short presentation
15:23:35 <brady_duga> q+
15:23:43 <pkra> ... some sweet&short document on the importance & challenge of paginated view
15:23:52 <mgylling> ack astearns
15:23:57 <pkra> ... have some place where we can start the discussion
15:24:15 <pkra> astearns: tag might be interested in access to the results of the paginated view.
15:24:22 <pkra> ... results from Opera
15:24:29 <pkra> ... you have no way of telling which content lands on which page
15:24:45 <pkra> ... not useful for our purposes when you don't know where e.g. footnotes landed.
15:24:55 <mgylling> ack brady_duga
15:25:21 <pkra> brady_duga: that's what I brought up at last years tpac
15:25:38 <pkra> mgylling: there's a fundamental spec missing?
15:25:43 <pkra> ivan: little bit more general
15:25:49 <pkra> ... not just a spec but a "view of the world"
15:25:54 <astearns> spec so far: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-overflow/#paginated-overflow (empty section with three issues) :)
15:25:57 <pkra> ... it might affect several specs
15:26:19 <pkra> ... currently fundamental belief: everything on the web should be done by scrollable view
15:26:26 <pkra> ... this would need to be challenged
15:26:35 <tzviya>  q+
15:26:42 <pkra> dauwhe: second that.
15:26:53 <pkra> ivan: what can we do?
15:27:09 <pkra> dauwhe: talk to Peter Lance (?) if there's any tag interest in that.
15:27:21 <dauwhe> s/Lance/Linss/
15:27:21 <ivan> s/Lance(?)/Linss/
15:27:26 <mgylling> ack tzviya
15:27:33 <pkra> mgylling: see also link from astearns
15:27:52 <pkra> tzviya: what we came on with epub/edupub -- content that some people called "card" or "page"
15:28:05 <pkra> ... fundamentally a display problem
15:28:44 <Luc> q+
15:28:47 <pkra> ... would probably have fit before <article> was designed [??? not sure if I caught that right]
15:29:08 <pkra> astearns: as a developer, I look at massive change of bringing in pagination to browsers
15:29:19 <astearns> s/astearns/???/
15:29:32 <ivan> s/astearns/brady_duga/
15:29:36 <pkra> ... will take years, probably not to every browser on all devices
15:29:49 <pkra> ... as a developer I don't know if I will be able to change to it ever.
15:30:00 <pkra> ... basically the risk of revolutionary change
15:30:07 <pkra> ... would be more in favor of evolutionary change
15:30:34 <pkra> dauwhe: paginated view certainly exist in ebook readers
15:30:48 <pkra> ... publishers want to be able to say "put this at the top/bottom of the page"
15:30:54 <ivan> q+
15:30:57 <pkra> ... so I'm not sure what small steps can get us to statements like that
15:31:14 <pkra> brady_duga: I'm not sure either but I'm sure that if we only describe giant steps, it is doomed.
15:31:57 <pkra> ... if a few platforms support, then it would take too much effort away from platforms that don't have such features
15:32:12 <pkra> ???: would be in favor of small steps.
15:32:21 <ivan> s/???/astearns/
15:32:27 <pkra> ... using JS to break into pages. Or use CSS regions.
15:32:37 <pkra> ... but CSS was a step too far.
15:33:03 <pkra> s/CSS/CSS-Regions
15:33:28 <mgylling> ack Luc
15:33:30 <pkra> ... if you can suggest features that would help move in small steps, I'd love to hear them, I just don't know them
15:33:58 <pkra> Luc: to add, even in a scrollable window, if we consider the web display is always scrollable, as a publisher we need some information.
15:34:22 <pkra> ... we need that information in scrollable,e.g, footnotes/notes
15:35:32 <pkra> ... in long HTML documents, we need to display more information in the context of the reader, even in scrollable
15:35:49 <pkra> ... need to make running heads and footnotes available
15:36:10 <pkra> ... if I say the web is scrollable only, what do I need to make contextual information available to the reader?
15:36:58 <mgylling> ack ivan
15:36:59 <pkra> dauwhe: to some degree, you'd have the viewport. But then it might end up as a fixed position in the viewport.
15:37:41 <pkra> ivan: we should be careful not to run ahead. I fully understand Brady's warning. We've had browser devs fighting over this before -- feature coming to one browser but not the other.
15:37:59 <pkra> ... we still need a document what we would need in an ideal world.
15:38:09 <pkra> ... then we can discuss where to make compromises to get it rolling
15:38:30 <pkra> ... I currently don't know where to go to get information on this.
15:38:36 <pkra> mgylling: a chapter of latinrec?
15:38:55 <pkra> ivan: No. A separate document fits better.
15:39:00 <pkra> dauwhe: +1
15:39:37 <pkra> mgylling: should we gather common resources to try to collect this document and make this a target for fall?
15:39:47 <astearns> :)
15:40:01 <pkra> dauwhe: I volunteer. It's at the heart of the issues I want to solve.
15:40:24 <Luc> I'd like to help Dave on this
15:40:28 <pkra> mgylling: anyone else?
15:40:38 <pkra> Luc: I volunteer.
15:40:53 <pkra> tzviya: I can give use cases from STEM.
15:41:15 <pkra> mgylling: brady_duga's use cases on the wiki (positioning, API stuff)
15:41:26 <pkra> brady_duga: I volunteer as non-lead.
15:41:34 <pkra> dauwhe: volunteer to lead.
15:42:12 <pkra> mgylling: ivan & dauwhe will sort out technical details.
15:43:02 <pkra> ivan: dauwhe, re task force update; other languages. We have interest from Chinese specialist.
15:43:14 <pkra> ... asked her to join us for a session at tpac.
15:43:44 <pkra> ... more generally, let's have some coordination call before tpac with ??? Ichida [???] , i18n group.
15:43:58 <pkra> ... some interest to do the same for Indic languages
15:43:59 <Karen> s/???/Cindy from China
15:44:17 <ivan> s/??? Ichida/Richard Ishida/
15:44:18 <Karen> s/Ichida/[???]/Richard Ishida
15:44:31 <tzviya> I speak and read hebrew (also RTL)
15:44:42 <pkra> ... would be necessary to bring in Arabic and Hebrew
15:45:06 <pkra> mgylling: we have some specialists for Arabic pagination
15:45:40 <pkra> ivan: call before tpac?
15:45:56 <pkra> mgylling: not a lot to say at this point. Should we get something more tangible?
15:46:07 <pkra> ivan: makes sense but we need to schedule ahead given his time constraints.
15:46:28 <pkra> mgylling: moving on
15:46:37 <pkra> ... PF meeting later today
15:46:51 <ivan> q+
15:47:00 <mgylling> ack ivan
15:47:14 <pkra> ivan: two issues we wanted to discuss with PF
15:47:50 <pkra> ... 1) via Deborah: talk about how a11y task force would work with them. Not 100% sure they can cover everything.
15:48:10 <pkra> ... there is a plan for a call to discuss this long term.
15:48:44 <pkra> ... 2) structural semantics, whether aria-role can be used for what we have in mind in DPUB IG.
15:49:17 <pkra> personally, 2) is more important since PF is the precise fit
15:49:27 <pkra> ...  personally, 2) is more important since PF is the precise fit
15:49:45 <pkra> mgylling: structural sem / role attribute. We had a small call before summer break.
15:49:52 <clown> clown has joined #dpub
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15:50:36 <pkra> ... where we had preliminary discussions
15:50:38 <Zakim> -duga
15:50:48 <pkra> ... which discussion to be had where; task forces etc.
15:51:06 <pkra> ... to summarize, PF open to idea. They have a plan, will be described later.
15:51:13 <pkra> ... joint subgroups etc.
15:51:27 <pkra> ... to develop and maintain extended vocabularies to the role attribute.
15:51:50 <pkra> ... however: main blocking has been HTML5 with its lock-down of roles.
15:51:59 <pkra> .. but a good place to start.
15:52:46 <pkra> ivan: will mgylling chair?
15:53:00 <pkra> mgylling: yes, but will be running late. Ivan will start.
15:53:26 <pkra> ... who will attend?
15:53:42 <pkra> ... tcole, luc, tzviya, pkra, ivan, mgylling
15:53:52 <pkra> ... [[who else?]]
15:54:30 <pkra> guest_dale (??): I'm McGrawHill accessibility lead
15:54:48 <pkra> guest_SusanMcCaulick(??): Nook
15:55:18 <pkra> mgylling: any other business?
15:55:24 <pkra> ivan: sign up for tpac!
15:55:49 <pkra> tzviya: is there a preliminary agenda (for DPUB IG)?
15:55:56 <dkaplan3> s/[[who else?]]/dkaplan3, [[who else?]]/
15:55:57 <ivan> http://www.w3.org/2014/11/TPAC/
15:56:06 <pkra> ivan: not yet. the IG has to do this itself.
15:56:11 <pkra> ... see link
15:56:18 <pkra> ... for other groups.
15:56:25 <Zakim> -mgylling
15:56:26 <Zakim> -dkaplan3
15:56:27 <Zakim> -Tzviya
15:56:28 <Zakim> -??P29
15:56:28 <Zakim> -azaroth
15:56:28 <Zakim> -Julie
15:56:29 <Zakim> -Karen_Myers
15:56:29 <Zakim> -Stearns
15:56:30 <TimCole> TimCole has left #dpub
15:56:30 <Zakim> -dauwhe
15:56:30 <Zakim> -Ivan
15:56:30 <Zakim> -??P8
15:56:30 <Zakim> - +1.617.640.aabb
15:56:32 <Zakim> -TimCole
15:56:32 <Zakim> -clapierre1
15:56:33 <Zakim> -Vlad
15:56:33 <Zakim> -murakami
15:56:34 <Zakim> -pkra
15:56:34 <Zakim> -LauraD
15:56:36 <Zakim> -fjh
15:56:36 <Zakim> -pBelfanti
15:56:37 <clapierre> clapierre has left #dpub
15:56:38 <Zakim> -david_stroup
15:56:39 <dkaplan3> dkaplan3 has left #dpub
15:56:40 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has ended
15:56:40 <Zakim> Attendees were azaroth, clapierre1, dauwhe, Tzviya, pkra, murakami, mgylling, dkaplan3, Stearns, duga, TimCole, pBelfanti, Ivan, Karen_Myers, Vlad, Julie, david_stroup, fjh,
15:56:40 <Zakim> ... LauraD, +1.617.640.aabb
15:56:53 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
15:56:53 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:56:53 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
15:57:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:57:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/25-dpub-minutes.html trackbot
15:57:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:57:02 <RRSAgent> I see no action items