See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 18 August 2014
<richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Aug/0059.html
<scribe> scribe: MichaelC
rs: need that done
cs: Joseph back from vacay, will work with him and have it done tomorrow
next week the Digital Publishing Interest Group is joining us
they may want new roles
will need validator support
mc: we need to think forwards compatibility implications of this
good opportunity to put that in a real context
js: also, we will be in #dpub, on Zakim 3782
not the normal PF channel
cs: can some colleagues join?
js, rs: yes
rs: where will minutes be?
js: can send to both groups
rs: agenda?
js: they have 2 items on an agenda
rs: might not fill the time
mc: can just pick up in #aria to finish the time slot
switch to the 92473 code (hang up and call back in)
rs: still need Matt King here
<clown> issue-554?
<trackbot> issue-554 -- Should elements inherit certain attr values from ancestor elements? aria-relevant does. What about aria-required and aria-invalid? -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/554
rs: if an ancestor element has aria-required does it inherit?
mc: think the answer is yes, but there were ambiguities in the 1.0 spec
(editorial but left room for confusion)
<clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-required
rs: looking at inheritance of aria-required, it inherits in the taxonomy
cs: but what about the ¨requiredness¨ of descendant elements?
think the requiredness should apply to owned elements
jn: but then buttons could end up being required, wouldn´t make sens
<clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2014AprJun/0100.html
rs: seems some problematic implictaions
cs: is issue proposing that, or just asking to clarify?
rs: let´s not open that can of worms
cs: agree; we should look at spec and make sure that´s clear
also don´t confuse a case like required on forms with different cases like live regions
<jcraig> issue-554
<trackbot> issue-554 -- Should elements inherit certain attr values from ancestor elements? aria-relevant does. What about aria-required and aria-invalid? -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/554
<clown> issue-496?
<trackbot> issue-496 -- Should aria-invalid inherit to descendants of a container; either way the answer should be clear in the spec -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/496
cs: so the answer to the issue is we should leave things they way they are
too many implications of a change
rs: so up to author to decide if they want required on descendants
cs: in issues like radiogroup, being required means you have to pick a radio button in it
jc: for groups of checkboxes does that mean you pick one or just pick all?
cs: yeah, that´s less clear
RESOLUTION: no change to spec, management of required descendants up to author
clown: what about aria-invalid? Same?
rs: think so
jc: even less value in trying to inherit that
cs: can think of use cases, but not a problem to have to do manually
jc: mark the invalid control
jn: sometimes you don´t know which control is invalid
jc: handle with error messaging?
jn: nice to support a flag by aria-invalid on form
jc: how does that help? you need to describe the error anyways
jn: yes, could put aria-invalid on form and have aria-describedby pointing to explanation
jg: need to be focusable form?
jn: yeah, that´s one issue with that
jc: still no inheritance there
we could discuss aria-invalid on form but it´s orthagonal use case to this issue
close issue-554
<trackbot> Closed issue-554.
RESOLUTION: aria-invalid also does not inherit to owned elements
<clown> issue-496?
<trackbot> issue-496 -- Should aria-invalid inherit to descendants of a container; either way the answer should be clear in the spec -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/496
clown: let´s close issue-496 also then
close issue-496
<trackbot> Closed issue-496.
<jcraig> issue-496: forward dupe to closed issue-554
<trackbot> Notes added to issue-496 Should aria-invalid inherit to descendants of a container; either way the answer should be clear in the spec.
<jcraig> close issue-496
<trackbot> Closed issue-496.
<clown> issue-653?
<trackbot> issue-653 -- Need to support selectors in ARIA relationships -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/653
<jcraig> issue-653
<trackbot> issue-653 -- Need to support selectors in ARIA relationships -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/653
rs: unsure what´s going to happen with selectors
maybe should handle this later in ARIA 2.0
jc: how do you mean doesn´t affect us?
rs: not likely to use selectors for things like aria-describedby
jc: web components use case more around aria-activedescendant
can see value for aria-labelledby, aria-activedescendant
though know we can´t support yet
I have action to propose spec text
<clown> action-1427?
<trackbot> action-1427 -- James Craig to Propose (at-risk) solution for selector references to be used in conjunction with IDREF -- due 2014-04-28 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1427
but planning to immediately put an ¨at risk¨ designation
no precendent for selectors in attribute values, don´t know if there are implementation difficulties
rs: issues with web components
jc: web components, or selectors in them?
rs: both
say you have a selector into canvas, can be gnarly
jc: so you´re talking subdom?
rs: yes
so think best to put off
jc: not as concerned, but don´t expect in 1.1 timeframe
so ok to push off
<jongund> push off
mc: think is out of scope of 1.1
RESOLUTION: move issue-653 and action-1427 to ARIA 2.0 product
<jcraig> trackbot, associate action-1427 with product-2
<trackbot> action-1427 (Propose (at-risk) solution for selector references to be used in conjunction with IDREF) associated with product-2.
<jcraig> trackbot, associate issue-653 with product-2
<trackbot> issue-653 (Need to support selectors in ARIA relationships) associated with product-2.
<jcraig> issue-653
<trackbot> issue-653 -- Need to support selectors in ARIA relationships -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/653
<jcraig> issue-657
<trackbot> issue-657 -- Consider 1.1 "term" role (related to html dfn/dt elements) in addition to the 1.0 "definition" (equiv to html dd element) -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/657
jc: one issue here is would like 1:1 relationship between roles and HTML elements
<jcraig> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/dt
<jcraig> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/dfn
mc: could be a little vague which HTML element this maps to
dfn doesn´t have way to associate the definition
dt does but is used for more than terms in practice
so like term role but not sure what the mapping is
jc: since we don´t have huge demand for this, maybe better to postpone to later version so we can sort out the question of how it maps to HTML
rs: the HTML mapping group wants to have something to map to
lw: want to understand how the roles might be used outside of HTML
jc: could use role=term with aria-describedby referencing definition
could have implicit semantics to auto-connect certain patterns
maybe will expose the need to engineer this better in HTML
<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to draft "term" role (related to html dfn/dt elements) in addition to the 1.0 "definition" (equiv to html dd element) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/08/18-aria-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1498 - Draft "term" role (related to html dfn/dt elements) in addition to the 1.0 "definition" (equiv to html dd element) [on James Craig - due 2014-08-25].
mc: not sure if this is 1.x or 2.x timeframe but makes sense to do a proposal now and see if it will be straightforward or not
<jcraig> trackbot, associate action-1498 with issue-657
<trackbot> action-1498 (Draft "term" role (related to html dfn/dt elements) in addition to the 1.0 "definition" (equiv to html dd element)) associated with issue-657.
<jcraig> trackbot, associate action-1498 with product-17
<trackbot> action-1498 (Draft "term" role (related to html dfn/dt elements) in addition to the 1.0 "definition" (equiv to html dd element)) associated with product-17.
<jcraig> trackbot, associate action-1498 with issue-657
<trackbot> action-1498 (Draft "term" role (related to html dfn/dt elements) in addition to the 1.0 "definition" (equiv to html dd element)) associated with issue-657.
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#math
https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/2bd174145f20c6c19104a6cdd2df097b232bb10b/spec/aria.html#math
<jcraig> action-1498
<trackbot> action-1498 -- James Craig to Draft "term" role (related to html dfn/dt elements) in addition to the 1.0 "definition" (equiv to html dd element) -- due 2014-08-25 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1498
<richardschwerdtfeger> Note
<richardschwerdtfeger> Browsers that support native implementations of MathML are able to provide a more robust, accessible math experience than can be accomplished with plain text approximations of math. Some rendering engines have close integration with screen readers that allow spacial touch exploration of the formula and refreshable braille display output in the Nemeth Braille format. This level of integration is not supported with images of mathematical formulas, [CUT]
<richardschwerdtfeger> the author provides a plain text approximation.
<richardschwerdtfeger> At the time of this writing, some mainstream browsers do not support MathML natively, and must be retrofit using a JavaScript polyfill library. When authoring math content, use native MathML wherever possible, and test thoroughly. Use a polyfill library or provide a fallback image with a text alternative approximation if necessary.
rs: thoughts on that note?
<jcraig> action-1494
<trackbot> action-1494 -- James Craig to Add spec text encouraging use of native mathml over math approximations using the math role, re: issue-637 -- due 2014-08-11 -- CLOSED
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1494
issue-637?
<trackbot> issue-637 -- Math role should strongly encourage native MathML over custom renderings use "math" role -- closed
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/637
rs: not hearing objections, accepting this note and closing the issue
<jcraig> x=⟮−b±√⟮b²−4ac⟯⟯÷2a
action-1201?
<trackbot> action-1201 -- James Nurthen to Generate example list where options can be unselectable -- due 2013-05-01 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1201
<clown> action-1201?
<trackbot> action-1201 -- James Nurthen to Generate example list where options can be unselectable -- due 2013-05-01 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1201
<figuring out history of this action>
<jcraig> propose we close issue-574 and action-1201
<jcraig> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#option
clown: seems the spec now is where we wanted it to be
<jcraig> implicit value of aria-selected for option role is false
RESOLUTION: close issue-574 and action-1201
<jcraig> close issue-574
<trackbot> Closed issue-574.
<jcraig> close action-1201
<trackbot> Closed action-1201.
<clown> action-1456?
<trackbot> action-1456 -- Christopher Gallello to Provide defintions in action 1454 for each of the annotation types -- due 2014-06-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1456
toic: Provide defintions in for each of the annotation types
<jcraig> issue-655
<trackbot> issue-655 -- Consider creating annotations roles for comments, spell-check errors, etc -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/655
<clown> action-1454?
<trackbot> action-1454 -- James Craig to Add aria-hasannotation attribute with values: comment, footnote, endnote, reference, insertion, deletion, modification, true, false, more where aria-hasannotation has only one value at a time -- due 2014-06-23 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1454
rs: need Chris to provide formal definitions for each type
<jcraig> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2014AprJun/0161.html
<clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1454
clown: found it
rs: ok, will copy to the action
<jcraig> issue-655
<trackbot> issue-655 -- Consider creating annotations roles for comments, spell-check errors, etc -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/655
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/358
<jcraig> action-1185
<trackbot> action-1185 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Look into UIA Express and UIA mappings for role=heading to check for heading paragraph style. -- due 2014-01-07 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1185
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#keyboard-focus_tabindex
<scribe> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Aug/0059.html
<jcraig> action-1254: create or find a test case: if keyup (or keydown) is cancelled using preventDefault(), the browser should *not* send a keypress event. I think this already works as expected in all major browsers.
<trackbot> Notes added to action-1254 Work with ui events working group to ensure that when a keydown event is consumed/cancelled that the corresponding keypress event is also cancelled..
<jcraig> action-1309
<trackbot> action-1309 -- Cynthia Shelly to Determine the best place to map aria-colindex and aria-rowindex for msaa+uiexpress and uia. -- due 2014-01-31 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1309
js: Remember it´s in #dpub
rs: will send agenda
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.138 of Date: 2013-04-25 13:59:11 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/expect in 1.x timeframe/expect in 1.1 timeframe/ Found Scribe: MichaelC Inferring ScribeNick: MichaelC Default Present: Jon_Gunderson, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, James_Nurthen, +1.512.445.aaaa, +1.603.882.aabb, Michael_Cooper, Cynthia_Shelly, LJWatson, Suzann_Keohane, Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, +1.415.624.aacc, Bryan_Garaventa, jcraig Present: Jon_Gunderson Rich_Schwerdtfeger Janina James_Nurthen +1.512.445.aaaa +1.603.882.aabb Michael_Cooper Cynthia_Shelly LJWatson Suzann_Keohane Joanmarie_Diggs Joseph_Scheuhammer +1.415.624.aacc Bryan_Garaventa jcraig Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Aug/0059.html Found Date: 18 Aug 2014 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/08/18-aria-minutes.html People with action items: jcraig WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]