16:59:24 RRSAgent has joined #aria 16:59:24 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/08/18-aria-irc 16:59:26 RRSAgent, make logs member 16:59:26 Zakim has joined #aria 16:59:28 Zakim, this will be WAI_PF 16:59:28 ok, trackbot, I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM already started 16:59:29 Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference 16:59:29 Date: 18 August 2014 16:59:31 RRSAgent, make log public 16:59:35 chair: Rich 16:59:44 meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus 16:59:45 +??P10 17:00:10 +Rich_Schwerdtfeger 17:00:40 zakim, ??P10 is Janina 17:00:40 +Janina; got it 17:00:47 zakim, who's on the phone? 17:00:47 On the phone I see Jon_Gunderson, Janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger 17:02:11 +James_Nurthen 17:02:21 + +1.512.445.aaaa 17:02:44 clown has joined #aria 17:02:53 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Aug/0059.html 17:03:07 + +1.603.882.aabb 17:03:22 Zakim, aabb is me 17:03:22 +joanie; got it 17:04:33 +??P12 17:06:10 +[IPcaller] 17:07:08 LJWatson has joined #aria 17:07:24 zakim, whoseo n the phone? 17:07:24 I don't understand your question, LJWatson. 17:07:49 +Cynthia_Shelly 17:07:57 zakim, [IPCaller] is LJWatson 17:07:57 +LJWatson; got it 17:08:06 zakim, aaaa is Suzann_Keohane 17:08:06 +Suzann_Keohane; got it 17:08:23 Zakim, joanie is Joanmarie_Diggs 17:08:23 +Joanmarie_Diggs; got it 17:09:20 scribe: MichaelC 17:09:50 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Aug/0059.html 17:09:52 +[GVoice] 17:09:56 topic: Text computation 17:09:58 rs: need that done 17:10:05 zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer 17:10:05 +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it 17:10:12 zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer 17:10:12 ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer 17:10:15 cs: Joseph back from vacay, will work with him and have it done tomorrow 17:10:30 topic: DigiPub meeting 17:10:44 next week the Digital Publishing Interest Group is joining us 17:10:58 they may want new roles 17:11:09 will need validator support 17:11:14 ack me 17:12:19 mc: we need to think forwards compatibility implications of this 17:12:25 good opportunity to put that in a real context 17:12:55 js: also, we will be in #dpub, on Zakim 3782 17:12:59 not the normal PF channel 17:13:05 cs: can some colleagues join? 17:13:09 js, rs: yes 17:13:34 rs: where will minutes be? 17:13:38 js: can send to both groups 17:13:45 rs: agenda? 17:14:21 js: they have 2 items on an agenda 17:14:25 rs: might not fill the time 17:15:04 mc: can just pick up in #aria to finish the time slot 17:15:17 switch to the 92473 code (hang up and call back in) 17:15:37 topic: Issue 633: Applying interactive types to static document roles 17:15:42 rs: still need Matt King here 17:15:45 issue-554? 17:15:45 issue-554 -- Should elements inherit certain attr values from ancestor elements? aria-relevant does. What about aria-required and aria-invalid? -- open 17:15:45 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/554 17:15:57 topic: Issue 554: Should elements inherit certain attr values from ancestor elements? 17:16:09 ack me 17:17:12 jamesn has joined #aria 17:17:15 rs: if an ancestor element has aria-required does it inherit? 17:17:16 jnurthen has joined #aria 17:17:30 mc: think the answer is yes, but there were ambiguities in the 1.0 spec 17:17:36 (editorial but left room for confusion) 17:18:29 http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-required 17:19:56 + +1.415.624.aacc 17:21:34 bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria 17:22:17 zakim, aaaa is Bryan_Garaventa 17:22:17 sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa' 17:22:33 rs: looking at inheritance of aria-required, it inherits in the taxonomy 17:22:38 zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa 17:22:38 sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not see a party named 'Bryan_Garaventa' 17:22:56 cs: but what about the ¨requiredness¨ of descendant elements? 17:23:12 think the requiredness should apply to owned elements 17:23:36 jn: but then buttons could end up being required, wouldn´t make sens 17:23:49 +[Apple] 17:23:51 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2014AprJun/0100.html 17:24:05 zakim, aaaa is Bryan_Garaventa 17:24:05 sorry, MichaelC, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa' 17:24:14 zakim, aacc is Bryan_Garaventa 17:24:14 +Bryan_Garaventa; got it 17:24:42 jcraig has joined #aria 17:24:56 Zakim, who is on the phone? 17:24:56 On the phone I see Jon_Gunderson, Janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, James_Nurthen, Suzann_Keohane, Joanmarie_Diggs, Michael_Cooper, LJWatson, Cynthia_Shelly, Joseph_Scheuhammer, 17:24:59 ... Bryan_Garaventa, [Apple] 17:25:08 rs: seems some problematic implictaions 17:25:15 Zakim, Apple is jcraig 17:25:15 +jcraig; got it 17:25:17 cs: is issue proposing that, or just asking to clarify? 17:25:38 rs: let´s not open that can of worms 17:25:55 cs: agree; we should look at spec and make sure that´s clear 17:26:06 also don´t confuse a case like required on forms with different cases like live regions 17:26:15 issue-554 17:26:15 issue-554 -- Should elements inherit certain attr values from ancestor elements? aria-relevant does. What about aria-required and aria-invalid? -- open 17:26:15 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/554 17:27:28 issue-496? 17:27:28 issue-496 -- Should aria-invalid inherit to descendants of a container; either way the answer should be clear in the spec -- open 17:27:28 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/496 17:28:08 cs: so the answer to the issue is we should leave things they way they are 17:28:16 too many implications of a change 17:28:36 rs: so up to author to decide if they want required on descendants 17:28:55 cs: in issues like radiogroup, being required means you have to pick a radio button in it 17:29:23 jc: for groups of checkboxes does that mean you pick one or just pick all? 17:29:29 zakim, mute me 17:29:29 Joseph_Scheuhammer should now be muted 17:29:38 zakim, who is noisy? 17:29:52 clown, listening for 13 seconds I heard sound from the following: Cynthia_Shelly (84%) 17:29:59 zakim, unmute me 17:29:59 Joseph_Scheuhammer should no longer be muted 17:30:01 cs: yeah, that´s less clear 17:30:44 RESOLUTION: no change to spec, management of required descendants up to author 17:31:13 clown: what about aria-invalid? Same? 17:31:16 rs: think so 17:31:32 jc: even less value in trying to inherit that 17:31:55 cs: can think of use cases, but not a problem to have to do manually 17:32:05 jc: mark the invalid control 17:32:15 jn: sometimes you don´t know which control is invalid 17:32:21 jc: handle with error messaging? 17:32:34 jn: nice to support a flag by aria-invalid on form 17:33:01 jc: how does that help? you need to describe the error anyways 17:33:21 jn: yes, could put aria-invalid on form and have aria-describedby pointing to explanation 17:33:29 jg: need to be focusable form? 17:33:34 jn: yeah, that´s one issue with that 17:33:41 jc: still no inheritance there 17:33:57 we could discuss aria-invalid on form but it´s orthagonal use case to this issue 17:34:04 close issue-554 17:34:04 Closed issue-554. 17:34:18 RESOLUTION: aria-invalid also does not inherit to owned elements 17:34:23 issue-496? 17:34:23 issue-496 -- Should aria-invalid inherit to descendants of a container; either way the answer should be clear in the spec -- open 17:34:23 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/496 17:35:03 clown: let´s close issue-496 also then 17:35:11 close issue-496 17:35:11 Closed issue-496. 17:35:30 issue-496: forward dupe to closed issue-554 17:35:30 Notes added to issue-496 Should aria-invalid inherit to descendants of a container; either way the answer should be clear in the spec. 17:35:36 close issue-496 17:35:36 Closed issue-496. 17:35:45 topic: Issue 653: Need to support selectors in ARIA Relationships 17:35:50 issue-653? 17:35:50 issue-653 -- Need to support selectors in ARIA relationships -- open 17:35:50 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/653 17:35:53 issue-653 17:35:53 issue-653 -- Need to support selectors in ARIA relationships -- open 17:35:53 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/653 17:36:35 rs: unsure what´s going to happen with selectors 17:36:42 maybe should handle this later in ARIA 2.0 17:36:55 jc: how do you mean doesn´t affect us? 17:37:16 rs: not likely to use selectors for things like aria-describedby 17:37:30 jc: web components use case more around aria-activedescendant 17:37:36 q+ 17:37:38 ack me 17:38:17 can see value for aria-labelledby, aria-activedescendant 17:38:27 though know we can´t support yet 17:38:40 I have action to propose spec text 17:38:44 action-1427? 17:38:44 action-1427 -- James Craig to Propose (at-risk) solution for selector references to be used in conjunction with IDREF -- due 2014-04-28 -- PENDINGREVIEW 17:38:44 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1427 17:38:50 but planning to immediately put an ¨at risk¨ designation 17:39:07 no precendent for selectors in attribute values, don´t know if there are implementation difficulties 17:39:28 rs: issues with web components 17:39:39 jc: web components, or selectors in them? 17:39:41 rs: both 17:39:52 say you have a selector into canvas, can be gnarly 17:40:08 jc: so you´re talking subdom? 17:40:10 rs: yes 17:40:36 so think best to put off 17:41:18 jc: not as concerned, but don´t expect in 1.x timeframe 17:41:23 so ok to push off 17:41:31 push off 17:41:33 mc: think is out of scope of 1.1 17:41:38 s/expect in 1.x timeframe/expect in 1.1 timeframe/ 17:42:04 RESOLUTION: move issue-653 and action-1427 to ARIA 2.0 product 17:42:16 Zakim, associate action-1427 with product-2 17:42:16 I don't understand 'associate action-1427 with product-2', jcraig 17:42:39 trackbot, associate action-1427 with product-2 17:42:39 action-1427 (Propose (at-risk) solution for selector references to be used in conjunction with IDREF) associated with product-2. 17:43:01 trackbot, associate issue-653 with product-2 17:43:01 issue-653 (Need to support selectors in ARIA relationships) associated with product-2. 17:43:37 topic: Issue 657: Introduce a "term" role: Equivalent to HTML DD 17:43:49 issue-653 17:43:50 issue-653 -- Need to support selectors in ARIA relationships -- open 17:43:50 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/653 17:44:01 issue-657 17:44:01 issue-657 -- Consider 1.1 "term" role (related to html dfn/dt elements) in addition to the 1.0 "definition" (equiv to html dd element) -- open 17:44:01 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/657 17:46:01 jc: one issue here is would like 1:1 relationship between roles and HTML elements 17:46:32 https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/dt 17:46:39 https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/dfn 17:47:55 mc: could be a little vague which HTML element this maps to 17:47:58 dfn doesn´t have way to associate the definition 17:48:05 dt does but is used for more than terms in practice 17:48:14 so like term role but not sure what the mapping is 17:48:48 jc: since we don´t have huge demand for this, maybe better to postpone to later version so we can sort out the question of how it maps to HTML 17:49:57 rs: the HTML mapping group wants to have something to map to 17:50:24 lw: want to understand how the roles might be used outside of HTML 17:50:38 jc: could use role=term with aria-describedby referencing definition 17:50:59 -Joseph_Scheuhammer 17:51:05 could have implicit semantics to auto-connect certain patterns 17:51:17 maybe will expose the need to engineer this better in HTML 17:51:26 +[GVoice] 17:51:35 zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer 17:51:35 +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it 17:51:42 zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer 17:51:42 ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer 17:52:35 ACTION: jcraig to draft "term" role (related to html dfn/dt elements) in addition to the 1.0 "definition" (equiv to html dd element) 17:52:36 Created ACTION-1498 - Draft "term" role (related to html dfn/dt elements) in addition to the 1.0 "definition" (equiv to html dd element) [on James Craig - due 2014-08-25]. 17:53:03 mc: not sure if this is 1.x or 2.x timeframe but makes sense to do a proposal now and see if it will be straightforward or not 17:53:09 trackbot, associate action-1498 with issue-657 17:53:09 action-1498 (Draft "term" role (related to html dfn/dt elements) in addition to the 1.0 "definition" (equiv to html dd element)) associated with issue-657. 17:53:25 trackbot, associate action-1498 with product-17 17:53:25 action-1498 (Draft "term" role (related to html dfn/dt elements) in addition to the 1.0 "definition" (equiv to html dd element)) associated with product-17. 17:53:41 topic: Proposal for note in Math role 17:53:59 trackbot, associate action-1498 with issue-657 17:53:59 action-1498 (Draft "term" role (related to html dfn/dt elements) in addition to the 1.0 "definition" (equiv to html dd element)) associated with issue-657. 17:53:59 http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#math 17:55:34 https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/2bd174145f20c6c19104a6cdd2df097b232bb10b/spec/aria.html#math 17:57:18 action-1498 17:57:18 action-1498 -- James Craig to Draft "term" role (related to html dfn/dt elements) in addition to the 1.0 "definition" (equiv to html dd element) -- due 2014-08-25 -- OPEN 17:57:18 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1498 17:57:28 Note 17:57:28 Browsers that support native implementations of MathML are able to provide a more robust, accessible math experience than can be accomplished with plain text approximations of math. Some rendering engines have close integration with screen readers that allow spacial touch exploration of the formula and refreshable braille display output in the Nemeth Braille format. This level of integration is not supported with images of mathematical formulas, [CUT] 17:57:29 the author provides a plain text approximation. 17:57:30 At the time of this writing, some mainstream browsers do not support MathML natively, and must be retrofit using a JavaScript polyfill library. When authoring math content, use native MathML wherever possible, and test thoroughly. Use a polyfill library or provide a fallback image with a text alternative approximation if necessary. 17:57:43 rs: thoughts on that note? 17:57:59 action-1494 17:57:59 action-1494 -- James Craig to Add spec text encouraging use of native mathml over math approximations using the math role, re: issue-637 -- due 2014-08-11 -- CLOSED 17:57:59 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1494 17:59:16 issue-637? 17:59:16 issue-637 -- Math role should strongly encourage native MathML over custom renderings use "math" role -- closed 17:59:16 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/637 18:00:02 rs: not hearing objections, accepting this note and closing the issue 18:00:19 x=⟮−b±√⟮b²−4ac⟯⟯÷2a 18:02:07 topic: Generate example list where options can be unselectable 18:02:10 action-1201? 18:02:11 action-1201 -- James Nurthen to Generate example list where options can be unselectable -- due 2013-05-01 -- PENDINGREVIEW 18:02:11 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1201 18:02:14 action-1201? 18:02:14 action-1201 -- James Nurthen to Generate example list where options can be unselectable -- due 2013-05-01 -- PENDINGREVIEW 18:02:14 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1201 18:04:40 18:06:23 propose we close issue-574 and action-1201 18:06:36 http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#option 18:06:57 clown: seems the spec now is where we wanted it to be 18:06:59 implicit value of aria-selected for option role is false 18:07:10 RESOLUTION: close issue-574 and action-1201 18:07:12 close issue-574 18:07:12 Closed issue-574. 18:07:36 close action-1201 18:07:36 Closed action-1201. 18:07:52 action-1456? 18:07:52 action-1456 -- Christopher Gallello to Provide defintions in action 1454 for each of the annotation types -- due 2014-06-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW 18:07:52 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1456 18:08:11 toic: Provide defintions in for each of the annotation types 18:08:15 topic: Provide defintions in for each of the annotation types 18:08:29 issue-655 18:08:29 issue-655 -- Consider creating annotations roles for comments, spell-check errors, etc -- open 18:08:29 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/655 18:08:37 action-1454? 18:08:37 action-1454 -- James Craig to Add aria-hasannotation attribute with values: comment, footnote, endnote, reference, insertion, deletion, modification, true, false, more where aria-hasannotation has only one value at a time -- due 2014-06-23 -- OPEN 18:08:38 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1454 18:08:48 rs: need Chris to provide formal definitions for each type 18:09:01 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2014AprJun/0161.html 18:09:52 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1454 18:10:16 clown: found it 18:10:25 rs: ok, will copy to the action 18:11:41 issue-655 18:11:41 issue-655 -- Consider creating annotations roles for comments, spell-check errors, etc -- open 18:11:41 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/655 18:12:35 topic: Review Open Actions and set completions dates 18:12:36 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17 18:13:10 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/358 18:17:44 action-1185 18:17:44 action-1185 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Look into UIA Express and UIA mappings for role=heading to check for heading paragraph style. -- due 2014-01-07 -- OPEN 18:17:44 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1185 18:18:01 -Suzann_Keohane 18:21:22 http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#keyboard-focus_tabindex 18:26:06 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Aug/0059.html 18:26:25 action-1254: create or find a test case: if keyup (or keydown) is cancelled using preventDefault(), the browser should *not* send a keypress event. I think this already works as expected in all major browsers. 18:26:26 Notes added to action-1254 Work with ui events working group to ensure that when a keydown event is consumed/cancelled that the corresponding keypress event is also cancelled.. 18:27:08 action-1309 18:27:08 action-1309 -- Cynthia Shelly to Determine the best place to map aria-colindex and aria-rowindex for msaa+uiexpress and uia. -- due 2014-01-31 -- OPEN 18:27:08 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1309 18:29:07 topic: Next meeting 18:29:26 js: Remember it´s in #dpub 18:29:28 -Cynthia_Shelly 18:29:29 rs: will send agenda 18:29:30 -LJWatson 18:29:30 -jcraig 18:29:31 -Bryan_Garaventa 18:29:31 -Joanmarie_Diggs 18:29:32 -Rich_Schwerdtfeger 18:29:32 -Jon_Gunderson 18:29:33 -James_Nurthen 18:29:34 -Michael_Cooper 18:29:35 -Joseph_Scheuhammer 18:29:35 -Janina 18:29:37 WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has ended 18:29:37 Attendees were Jon_Gunderson, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, James_Nurthen, +1.512.445.aaaa, +1.603.882.aabb, Michael_Cooper, Cynthia_Shelly, LJWatson, Suzann_Keohane, 18:29:37 ... Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, +1.415.624.aacc, Bryan_Garaventa, jcraig 18:29:41 rrsagent, make minutes 18:29:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/18-aria-minutes.html MichaelC 18:30:45 jcraig has left #aria 18:30:49 jcraig has joined #aria 19:05:35 clown has joined #aria 19:49:20 MichaelC_ has joined #aria 19:49:56 MichaelC__ has joined #aria 20:24:56 Zakim has left #aria 21:02:44 clown has left #aria