See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 10 July 2014
<janina_> Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference
<MarkS> scribe: MarkS
JS: Status update, we are waiting
for some content from chaals. We are going through the
objection we received from Ted O'Connor that we may treat as a
formal objection
... I might be able to take on some of the work since Chaals is
still going through rehabilitation for his knee
... Mark can you help
MS: YEs Janina, I can help.
JS: John, you can help with the
research part. Anyone can actually. we will go through the list
of concerns raised by Ted and list when the TF has reached
consensus on those concerns.
... we believe these are all old concerns
... we want to put that kind of response together
... John, i know you have a lot of historical knowledge here as
well.
JF: Its a question of when you need it. I will be heading up to San Jose for Open Web Camp. Will be unavailable until Monday.
JS: we can touch base on the
Media call on Monday
... apologies to Paul for not getting a response on his
question RE the CfC in the TF
<Judy> scribe: JB
MS: wanted to let
people know that after careful deliberation I have decided to accept a position
at the e-learning startup edX here in Cambridge,
and will no longer be continuing in my role as Staff Contact for the task force.
...will still be working on accessibility in a field I have pst experience in; I'm very
excited, but regret having to leave my position here;
...hoping to continue my involvement here at W3C and have starting conversations with new
employer on that
JS: very sorry to hear the news but wish you well in the new work, and appreciate the help you've given here. appreciate the approach you've used here that has helped the enviroment of the TF
MS: have very much enjoyed working with everyone here and have made great friendships and relationships that I hope to maintain.
<Judy> scribe: Mark
JB: It's been great having you in
this role, Mark. You've done great work in the TF, but also
mapping out accessibility issues in other parts of the Open Web
Platform.
... mixed feeling here as well. Hope you can find some way to
remain involved. Good to have someone working on accessibility at
edX
... because this role is so critical to accessibility in
HTML, we have been carefully considering next steps.
... W3C management is aware of the critical nature of this role
and is looking at interim solutions to maintain the momentum
of this group
... including the active sub groups
... and new canvas task force
... we will have more details very soon.
... if any questions, please email me
PLH: thank you mark, still trying
to figure how to prevent you from leaving, locking your door
perhaps
... hope this work can continue since it is of so much
importance.
JS: and we hope that you can maintain involvement after switching roles
JF: don't be a stranger, dude!
CS: +1
<paulc> +10 from the HTML WG Chairs on Mark's contributions to the A11Y TF and the Canvas work
SM: I've been involved with W3C for many years and you've been one of the best team contacts I've ever worked with.
JS: You've made great progress on Canvas for sure.
JB: We have some ideas for who can take over convening the Media Sub Group
JS: we are moving expeditiously
to publish a heartbeat draft. Incorporating accepted
revisions.
... still hoping to get this done by next week
... do we need to run a CfC in the TF to publish this HB
JB: given that the media sub
group is a sub group of the TF, they do not have publishing
capabilities. That particular deliverable is simply under PF,
so we would want to follow the PF process.
... Janina, as the liaison to PF has the ability to do
that
... I don't remember this document coming through the TF in
some time, so perhaps there are others who would like a chance
to review
JS: sounds like it would be
prudent to run it through the TF and PF.
... which means we will need a new Team contact to publish the
document
... HTML is not running CfC's on HBs
JB: don't want to cause confusion about how the TF handles such things
<paulc> Can we have a link to the candidate document?
<paulc> I was dropped off the phone for 2-3 mins.
https://rawgit.com/w3c/pfwg/master/media-accessibility-reqs/index.html
the above is a link to an editors draft which is still in flux
a candidate document should be available early next week
stabilized
JS: no bug triage meeting, lack of quorum. no urgent bugs to consider
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/51wishlist
JS: date UI discussion would benefit from Chaals who is doing work in WebApps
CS: Most of the menus that are
out there right now, are hybrids. design pattern called a
mega-menu. usually tabbed, each tab has things that look like
headings but are not
... quite a few menus that are more like dialogs than menus, or
are a hybrid
<cyns> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2014Jul/0023.html
CS: mega menus, with examples are
in the email. Interestingly, its not a menu. they usually
contain aria menu markup, which is not correct
... menu footers, similar
... facebook notification center. toolbar (of sorts) menus,
buttons, links, drop downs. some are links, some are
combinations of links and menus
... news.google.com, upper right, account name. hybrid, acts
like a dialog, looks like a menu.
... what designers think of as a menu are not like a menu.
sometimes you can click in one place to activate, the amazon
your account drop down is a good example of this.
... two columns, ability to add to cart
... menus are not at all like traditional OS menus. And aria
may not be able to solve all of these uses.
... designers still call them menus
... there are traditional menus. outlook.com, gmail, have
traditional menus
... context menus, i.e. settings
... aria menu markup doesn't quite meet the need
... what is currently in html5.1 is not as far off as I
remember. there has been work done.
... aria menus, the markup is fine for trad. menus, but for
hybrid menus, it would be tricky. would need techniques and or
more roles
... aria is clear, but building a script based menu is hard.
considering different input modes, speech, touch, etc
... hover doesn't work with touch
... i would like to see menus back in 5.1 what we need is more
than just a file edit menu
... lots of links in the email I sent. Love to hear
feedback.
JF: seems to be that the
fundamental problem is the difference between real menus and
theys hybrid constructs
... perhpas we need a super class of navigation roles
CS: a lot of these have links, buttons, graphics, objects with multiple ui things, etc. mini dialogs
JF: sometimes they have two events attached to the same link even
CS: designers don't see a difference between links and buttons. they are the same things. they are all things that do stuff
JF: interaction triggers
JS: what we want to address is
having sufficient tools and techniques to accomplish
these
... don't think we can fully do this from the accessibility
perspective. what is the interest of the HTML WG in taking this
on
PC: Don't know
JS: once HTML adds specificity,
we would need to look at support from an accessibility
perspective
... next step is finding out the wider interest in taking on
something like this.
CS: anyone know devs at chrome?
MS: I can contact dominic
CS: can talk to david
bolter
... some of these are accessible, once you figure them out,
just an awkward UE
SM: sounds like we have a today problem. can we do WCAG techniques for these?
CS: for some of these,
perhaps.
... would need a collaborator to accomplish that
... not even sure what a screen reader would do with tab-panel
has-popup
... most are styled links inside a div with a role of menu on
them
... so we need to figure out if HTML WG wants to do anything
with this
... see if ARIA wants to do something with this, perhaps in
1.1
... and WCAG techniques
JS: i think ARIA will not do
anything if HTML doesn't want to be involved
... scope creep for 1.1
CS: I can take an action to find
out what HTML wants to do
... we can file an issue in ARIA
... someone needs to take an action to talk with WCAG
JS: I think PF has a liaison, joshue perhaps. can bring it up with them
JF: we can create the issue, but if we don't have a solution, might be fruitless exercise
CS: we could definitely improve
the situation with WCAG techniques
... i can create Issues and Action manually
... Issue for ARIA for hybrid menus
... Action for cyns to find out who in HTML to discuss
interest
... Issue for WCAG hybrid menu techniques
... Action for me to contact James Nurthen
... anyone think this is *not* an issue?
JF: this is an issue
SM: navigation is one of the biggest issues on the web today
JS: navbar is one of the most frequent complaints I hear
Thanks to Cynthia for a great presentation on ACTION-262
JB: thanks to Paul for already providing comments on MAUR
[adjourned]
<Judy> ...and thanks to Mark for all his work on the TF.