IRC log of html-a11y on 2014-07-10

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14:54:14 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/07/10-html-a11y-irc
14:54:16 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:54:18 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
14:54:19 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:54:19 [trackbot]
Date: 10 July 2014
14:54:24 [janina_]
agenda?
14:54:38 [janina_]
zakim, agenda?
14:54:47 [janina_]
Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference
14:54:47 [janina_]
Chair: Janina
14:54:47 [janina_]
agenda+ Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
14:54:50 [janina_]
agenda+ Longdesc [See Below]
14:54:53 [janina_]
agenda+ Media Subteam
14:54:55 [janina_]
agenda+ HTML 5.1 Next Steps [See Below]
14:54:58 [janina_]
agenda+ Other Business
14:55:00 [janina_]
agenda+ Identify Chair and Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
14:55:03 [janina_]
agenda+ be done
14:56:18 [MarkS]
agenda+ Announcement from Mark Sadecki
14:56:58 [MarkS]
zakim, agenda>
14:56:58 [MarkS]
zakim, agenda?
14:57:23 [paulc]
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14:57:46 [paulc]
zakim, what is the code?
14:57:53 [paulc]
trackbot, start meeting
14:57:55 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:57:57 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
14:57:58 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:57:58 [trackbot]
Date: 10 July 2014
14:58:27 [janina_]
zakim, agenda?
14:58:39 [MarkS]
janina, I think zakim might be down
14:58:43 [janina_]
Poor Zakim, dead as the proverbial doornail.
14:58:47 [paulc]
Nice music
14:59:27 [paulc]
Earlier this week (Tue at Media TF) it took 5-10 mins for Zakim to become useful
14:59:31 [janina_]
Oops, am I playing my hold music?
14:59:42 [paulc]
I had to execute "start meeting" several times before it stuck
15:00:21 [paulc]
Is the music accessible?
15:00:27 [paulc]
;<)
15:01:07 [janina_]
I can't hear it, but I know it's Brahmns! Does that count?
15:04:34 [plh]
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15:04:45 [MarkS]
scribe: MarkS
15:05:13 [MarkS]
present+ John Foliot, Janina, Paul Cotton, John Foliot, Mark Sadecki, Cynthia Shelley
15:05:36 [MarkS]
present+ Judy Brewer
15:05:53 [MarkS]
Topic: Longdesc
15:05:55 [plh]
Present+ Plh
15:06:42 [JF]
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15:07:05 [MarkS]
JS: Status update, we are waiting for some content from chaals. We are going through the objection we received from Ted O'Connor that we may treat as a formal objection
15:07:27 [MarkS]
...I might be able to take on some of the work since Chaals is still going through rehabilitation for his knee
15:07:31 [MarkS]
...Mark can you help
15:07:47 [MarkS]
MS: YEs Janina, I can help.
15:08:31 [MarkS]
JS: John, you can help with the research part. Anyone can actually. we will go through the list of concerns raised by Ted and list when the TF has reached consensus on those concerns.
15:08:44 [MarkS]
...we believe these are all old concerns
15:09:02 [MarkS]
...we want to put that kind of response together
15:09:21 [MarkS]
...John, i know you have a lot of historical knowledge here as well.
15:09:55 [MarkS]
JF: Its a question of when you need it. I will be heading up to San Jose for Open Web Camp. Will be unavailable until Monday.
15:10:16 [MarkS]
JS: we can touch base on the Media call on Monday
15:10:40 [MarkS]
...apologies to Paul for not getting a response on his question RE the CfC in the TF
15:11:00 [MarkS]
Topic: Announcement from Mark Sadecki
15:11:05 [Judy]
scribe: JB
15:11:40 [Judy]
MS: wanted to let people know that i will be accepting a position at edX nearby, so won't be continuing in this role
15:12:16 [Judy]
...will still be working on accessibility in a field have experience in; very excited, but regretting to leave the position here;
15:12:35 [Judy]
...hoping to continue to be involved here and am starting conversations with new employer on that
15:13:38 [Judy]
JS: very sorry to hear the news but wish you well in the new work, and appreciate the help you've given here. appreciate the approach you've used here that has helped the enviroment of the TF
15:13:59 [MarkS]
present+ Shane McCarron
15:14:13 [Judy]
MS: have very much enjoyed working with everyone here
15:14:21 [Judy]
scribe: Mark
15:15:14 [MarkS]
JB: It's been great having you in this role, Mark. You've done great work in the TF, but also mapping out accessibility issues in other parts of the Open Web Platform.
15:15:46 [MarkS]
...mixed feeling here as well. Hope you can find some way to remain involved. Good to have someone working on accessiblyt at edX
15:16:21 [MarkS]
...because this role is so critical to accessibility in the HTML, we have been carefully considering next steps.
15:16:52 [janina_]
q?
15:17:26 [MarkS]
...W3C management is aware of the critical nature of this role and are looking at interim solutions to maintain the momentum of this group
15:17:43 [MarkS]
...including the active sub groups
15:17:58 [MarkS]
...and new canvas task force
15:18:12 [MarkS]
...we will have more details very soon.
15:18:38 [plh]
q+
15:18:42 [MarkS]
...if any questions, please email to me
15:19:17 [MarkS]
PLH: thank you mark, still trying to figure how to prevent you from leaving, locking your door perhaps
15:19:32 [MarkS]
...hope this work can continue since it is of so much importance.
15:19:47 [MarkS]
JS: and we hope that you can maintain involvement after switching roles
15:20:14 [MarkS]
JF: don't be a stranger
15:20:30 [MarkS]
CS: +1
15:20:32 [paulc]
+10 from the HTML WG Chairs on Mark's contributions to the A11Y TF and the Canvas work
15:20:36 [Judy]
s/don't be a stranger/don't be a stranger, dude!/
15:21:02 [MarkS]
SM: you've been one of the best team contacts I've ever had to work
15:21:58 [MarkS]
JS: great progress on Canvas for sure.
15:22:35 [MarkS]
Topic: Media
15:23:02 [MarkS]
JB: We have some ideas for who can take over convening the Media Sub Group
15:23:29 [MarkS]
JS: we are moving expeditiously to publish a heartbeat draft. Incorporating accepted revisions.
15:23:39 [MarkS]
...still hoping to get this done by next week
15:24:02 [MarkS]
...do we need to run a CfC in the TF to publish this HB
15:25:28 [MarkS]
JB: given that the media sub group is a sub group of the TF, they do not have publishing capabilities. That particular deliverable is simply under PF, so we would want to follow the PF process.
15:25:58 [MarkS]
...Janina, as the liaison to PF has the ability to do that
15:26:32 [MarkS]
...I don't remember this document coming through the TF in some time, so perhaps there are others who would like a chance to review
15:27:00 [MarkS]
JS: sounds like it would be prudent to run it through the TF and PF.
15:27:09 [MarkS]
...which means we will need a new Team contact to publish the document
15:27:32 [MarkS]
...HTML is not running CfC's on HBs
15:27:55 [MarkS]
JB: don't want to cause confusion about how the TF handles such things
15:28:11 [paulc]
Can we have a link to the candidate document?
15:29:39 [paulc]
I was dropped off the phone for 2-3 mins.
15:30:02 [MarkS]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/pfwg/master/media-accessibility-reqs/index.html
15:30:21 [MarkS]
the above is a link to an editors draft which is still in flux
15:30:32 [MarkS]
a candidate document should be available early next week
15:30:39 [MarkS]
stabilized
15:31:37 [MarkS]
JS: no bug triage meeting, lack of quorum. no urgent bugs to consider
15:31:57 [MarkS]
Topic: HTML5.1 (menus from Cynthia Shelley)
15:32:35 [MarkS]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/51wishlist
15:33:56 [MarkS]
JS: date UI discussion would benefit from Chaals who is doing work in WebApps
15:34:26 [MarkS]
regrets+ adrian roselli
15:35:00 [MarkS]
CS: Most of the menus that are out there right now, are hybrids. design pattern called a mega-menu. usually tabbed, each tab has things that look like headings but are not
15:35:03 [cyns]
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15:35:14 [MarkS]
...quite a few menus that are more like dialogs than menus, or are a hybrid
15:35:53 [cyns]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2014Jul/0023.html
15:36:36 [MarkS]
...mega menus, with examples are in the email. Interestingly, its not a menu. they usually contain aria menu markup, which is not correct
15:36:59 [MarkS]
...menu footers, similar
15:37:32 [MarkS]
...facebook notification center. toolbar (of sorts) menus, buttons, links, drop downs. some are links, some are combinations of links and menus
15:38:04 [MarkS]
...news.google.com, upper right, account name. hybrid, acts like a dialog, looks like a menu.
15:38:39 [MarkS]
...what designers think of as a menu are not like a menu. sometimes you can click in one place to activate, the amazon your account drop down is a good example of this.
15:39:00 [MarkS]
...two columns, ability to add to cart
15:39:24 [MarkS]
...menus are not at all like traditional OS menus. And aria may not be able to solve all of these uses.
15:39:29 [MarkS]
...designers still call them menus
15:40:08 [MarkS]
...there are traditional menus. outlook.com, gmail, have traditional menus
15:40:20 [MarkS]
...context menus, i.e. settings
15:40:31 [MarkS]
...aria menu markup doesn't quite meet the need
15:40:54 [MarkS]
...what is currently in html5.1 is not as far off as I remember. there has been work done.
15:41:36 [MarkS]
...aria menus, the markup is fine for trad. menus, but for hybrid menus, it would be tricky. would need techniques and or more roles
15:41:58 [MarkS]
...aria is clear, but building a script based menu is hard. considering different input modes, speech, touch, etc
15:42:04 [MarkS]
...hover doesn't work with touch
15:42:19 [JF]
Q+
15:42:22 [MarkS]
...i would like to see menus back in 5.1 what we need is more than just a file edit menu
15:42:39 [MarkS]
...lots of links in the email I sent. Love to hear feedback.
15:43:04 [MarkS]
JF: seems to be that the fundamental problem is the difference between real menus and theys hybrid constructs
15:43:27 [MarkS]
...perhpas we need a super class of navigation roles
15:43:57 [MarkS]
CS: a lot of these have links, buttons, graphics, objects with multiple ui things, etc. mini dialogs
15:44:09 [MarkS]
JF: sometimes they have two events attached to the same link even
15:44:40 [MarkS]
CS: designers don't see a difference between links and buttons. they are the same things. they are all things that do stuff
15:44:45 [MarkS]
JF: interaction triggers
15:45:22 [MarkS]
JS: what we want to address is having sufficient tools and techniques to accomplish these
15:45:47 [MarkS]
...don't think we can fully do this from the accessibility perspective. what is the interest of the HTML WG in taking this on
15:45:55 [MarkS]
PC: Don't know
15:46:17 [MarkS]
JS: once HTML adds specificity, we would need to look at support from an accessibility perspective
15:46:39 [MarkS]
...next step is finding out the wider interest in taking on something like this.
15:47:08 [MarkS]
CS: anyone know devs at chrome?
15:47:14 [MarkS]
MS: I can contact dominic
15:47:23 [MarkS]
CS: can talk to david bolted
15:47:30 [MarkS]
s/bolted/bolter
15:47:55 [MarkS]
...some of these are accessible, once you figure them out, just an awkward UE
15:48:16 [MarkS]
SM: sounds like we have a today problem. can we do WCAG techniques for these?
15:48:23 [MarkS]
CS: for some of these, perhaps.
15:48:44 [MarkS]
...would need a collaborator to accomplish that
15:49:15 [MarkS]
...not even sure what a screen reader would do with tab-panel has-popup
15:49:57 [MarkS]
...most are styled links inside a div with a role of menu on them
15:50:21 [MarkS]
...so we need to figure out if HTML WG wants to do anything with this
15:50:31 [MarkS]
...see if ARIA wants to do something with this, perhaps in 1.1
15:50:39 [MarkS]
...and WCAG techniques
15:51:14 [MarkS]
JS: i think ARIA will not do anything if HTML doesn't want to be involved
15:51:19 [MarkS]
...scope creep for 1.1
15:51:55 [MarkS]
CS: I can take an action to find out what HTML wants to do
15:51:58 [MarkS]
...we can file an issue in ARIA
15:52:14 [MarkS]
...someone needs to take an action to talk with WCAG
15:52:43 [MarkS]
JS: I think PF has a liaison, joshue perhaps. can bring it up with them
15:53:07 [MarkS]
JF: we can create the issue, but if we don't have a solution, might be fruitless exercise
15:53:19 [MarkS]
CS: we could definitely improve the situation with WCAG techniques
15:53:53 [MarkS]
...i can create Issues and Action manually
15:54:11 [MarkS]
...Issue for ARIA for hybrid menus
15:54:27 [MarkS]
...Action for cyns to find out who in HTML to discuss interest
15:54:36 [MarkS]
...Issue for WCAG hybrid menu techniques
15:54:45 [MarkS]
...Action for me to contact James Nurthen
15:55:11 [MarkS]
...anyone think this is *not* an issue?
15:55:26 [MarkS]
JF: this is an issue
15:55:35 [MarkS]
SM: navigation is one of the biggest issues on the web today
15:55:57 [MarkS]
JS: navbar is one of the most frequent complaints I hear
15:56:56 [ShaneM]
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15:57:02 [MarkS]
Thanks to Cynthia for a great presentation on ACTION-262
15:57:23 [MarkS]
JB: thanks to Paul for already providing comments on MAUR
15:58:04 [MarkS]
[adjourned]
15:58:34 [Judy]
...and thanks to Mark for all his work on the TF.
15:58:54 [MarkS]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:58:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/10-html-a11y-minutes.html MarkS