Web Applications Working Group Teleconference

03 Jun 2014

See also: IRC log


dglazkov, dael, Travis, Garykac


<scribe> Scribe: Travis

<scribe> ScribeNick: Travis

<masayuki> Hi,


(and garykac)

<garykac> We have trimmed a bunch of content from the D3E spec.

<garykac> Basically, the stuff that is already covered in DOM4.

(Related to bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25485)

<garykac> We're still in the process of fixing up all the links and text so that it properly refers to right place for each event.

Masayuki, you filed a new bug recently: Bug 25888 - The definition of .key value of "RomanCharacters"

Would you like to discuss it?

<masayuki> Yeah.

<masayuki> It's strange. Although, I've not checked the Korean IME behavior yet.

<masayuki> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/KeyboardEvent.key

<masayuki> "Romaji" is not only mapped with Japanese keyboard layout on Gecko. But the key value is grouped in Korean keyboard specific key value.

<masayuki> I'm not sure if it's needed for Korean keyboard layout, though.

<masayuki> "GDK_Hangul_Romaja" might be mapped with "Romaji". However, I don't know when this keysym is used on Linux's Korean keyboard layout.

<masayuki> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc194846.aspx

<masayuki> If there is no explanation about Romaja...

Either RomanCharacters is moved up to the table above, or we split it out into two.

<garykac> Yes, it looks like a Romaji key is missing from Japanese

<masayuki> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Korean

<garykac> I'm fine with it being 2 separate keys: Romaji (J) and Youngja (K)

<masayuki> Separating the key value sounds good to me because they never conflict since they are used different keyboard layout.

Agree -- this seems like the right thing to do.

Looking at the spelling of "Young" and "Youngja"..

<masayuki> And trivial question, "Keys specific to Korean keyboards" and "Keys specific to Japanese keyboards" are not sorted from A to Z. Is it intentional?

Might be "Yeong" and "Yeongja"

<garykac> I just noticed that the Korean Hangul <-> roman key is already covered by HangulMode.

<masayuki> Yeah, but X11 (?) defines a lot of Hangul specific keysym. And we are still not sure the mapping with .key value. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=865564#c5

<garykac> So I think that we just need to move RomanCharacters into the Japanese section and rename it Romaji.

<masayuki> We don't have enough number of contributors of Korean...

<garykac> We can add more Korean keys as needed - we just need to see them on a keyboard to prove they exist.

<garykac> Masayuki: I just updated the keys: I added Romaji, removed RomanCharacters and sorted the Japanese/Korean IME keys. Please take a look.

<masayuki> Checking if each of them exists is very difficult because I'm not familiar with Korean IMEs...

<masayuki> garykac: Great, thanks!

<masayuki> Ah, and I have information. Firefox 32 will support KeyboardEvent.code at least for physical keyboard on all OSes. Probably, it's not enabled with 32's release build in default settings. But starting with 33, it would be enabled.

<garykac> Wahoo!

<garykac> I'm still trying to get an estimate for when this'll be in Chomium/Blink.

<masayuki> The mapping table is here. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/KeyboardEvent.code Note that it might be updated with some bug fix.

This is excellent.

Other than that bug, is there anything else we need to review today?

<garykac> Masayuki: That table looks very nice - I've always liked the MDN docs.

<masayuki> garykac: Thanks.

<masayuki> Travis: I don't have anymore.

<garykac> OK. So until next week. We are hoping to have all the bugs resolved by then (or maybe only one or two that require discussion).

<garykac> We'll probably get the |key| and |code| specs ready for release first.

<garykac> That way, we'll get proper URLs for them that we can use to update the main D3E spec.

<garykac> Then we'll release D3E.

<garykac> (...finally)

<masayuki> See you.

<ArtB> yves - yt?

<ArtB> nm yves (see https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/271 )

<smaug> why http://www.w3.org/TR/file-system-api/ misses the content

<smaug> ArtB: do you know why http://www.w3.org/TR/file-system-api/ doesn't seem to have any content

<smaug> well, it has "Abstract" and "Status of This Document"

<darobin> smaug: "Work on this document has been discontinued and it should not be referenced or used as a basis for implementation."

<ArtB> smaug, the group agreed to stop working on it, thus it was published as a NOTE

<darobin> if you want content, go to the ED or the previous version

<smaug> ArtB: sure

<darobin> smaug: it's a tombstone

<ArtB> what darobin said

<smaug> oh, Notes don't have content these days?

<ArtB> they can smaug

<darobin> smaug: it deliberately has no content because its sole purpose is to indicate that there's nothing to see there

<smaug> I see

<ArtB> one reason we started gutting them is to make sure there was no technical differences between the ED and the last TR

<smaug> ok, thanks

<darobin> smaug: because what happens otherwise is that people go "Oooooh, wonderful! A Web Standard (from 1972) just for what I want!"

<darobin> and they implement, or pester implementers, etc

<smaug> (someone was just asking me about the status of file apis)

<ArtB> yeah, we really don't want people to implement Notes

<ArtB> yes, I saw Arun replied

<ArtB> I still have that in my Inbox

<ArtB> I was going to reply with a link to the Mozilla proposal that is still active in WebApps

<ArtB> http://w3c.github.io/filesystem-api/Overview.html

<ArtB> ACTION: barstow add http://w3c.github.io/filesystem-api/Overview.html to PubStatus [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/05/27-webapps-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-730 - Add http://w3c.github.io/filesystem-api/overview.html to pubstatus [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-06-10].

<darobin> ArtB: I'm curious what your opinion is about the megamerge proposal

<ArtB> smaug, will do

<ArtB> darobin, I'd like to understand the `problem statement`

<ArtB> IOW, if a merge is an `answer`, what exactly is the question?

<darobin> ArtB: I can't claim to speak for the originator of the idea, but I can say why I like it

<ArtB> please do

<darobin> there's a lot of overlap in membership, and there's a move towards pretty much the same work style

<darobin> the separation feels arbitrary

<darobin> DOM in HTML, D3Ev in WA

<darobin> HTML in HTML, innerHTML in WA

<darobin> etc.

<ArtB> but can you point to any specific problems that arise from the current structure?

<darobin> I think the issues and solutions are the same

<ArtB> is there some feedback or input that isn't being submitted?

<darobin> well, people who aren't experts don't know where to look, whereas the new beast would be the whole of the core WP

<darobin> there is, but that's an orthogonal issue

<darobin> people are quite confused for instance with the editing stuff

<darobin> Selection, Events are in WA, but the attribute and a bunch of other behaviours are in HTML; whereas the project clearly has some coordination unity

<darobin> to the point where I'm really thinking "joint TF" for editing

<darobin> (and I don't like joint TFs :)

<Yves> and what about sysapps? ;)

<darobin> Yves: *web* platform ;)

<ArtB> I can think of some + and -

<ArtB> would like to hear from others

<ArtB> my recollection from being a `fly on the wall` for PSIG is that some Member abhor mega groups

<darobin> yeah, but I want to leave that aside for now

<darobin> IP issues exist, we can cross that bridge if we agree that doing this is a good idea in the first place

<ArtB> but it turns out the only thing W3C has going for it is Patent Policy ;-)

<darobin> if it's a bad idea, let's not trouble our pretty heads with lawyery stuff

<darobin> heh

<darobin> and its sexy chairs

<ArtB> oh yeah, and that ;)

<ArtB> are you going to be at the AC meeting next week darobin?

<darobin> nope

<ArtB> oh, bummer

<ArtB> I think Sam is going to raise the topic

<darobin> I'm trying not to travel more than strictly necessary

<darobin> yes, he is

<Yves> to paraphrase Peter's principle "a successful WG will get to do more and more work to the point it will become ineffective"

<darobin> ArtB: it would simplify bringing CC to WebApps, too

<ArtB> I suspect the CC shipped has sailed given the precedence but that's a bit of a hunch

<darobin> I'm assuming that that WG would have the momentum to rewrite pretty much any part of the Process :)

<ArtB> WorkMode trumps ProcDoc; the anarchist side of me kinda' likes that

<darobin> well, that's not actually true, but it's cool to act like it does :)

<ArtB> s/WebAppsWG/LordOfTheFliesWG/

<darobin> what with two chairs on the AB and all

<darobin> the Consortium within the Consortium

<darobin> the shadow behind the Director's Throne

<ArtB> hey, cwilso is a WebApps member too

<darobin> yeah, so is Tantek IIRC

<darobin> plus most of the TAG

<darobin> it's, like, the only other WG is the CSS WG — and who cares about a bunch of sissies making pretty colours for shit?

<Yves> don't be harsh to them or they'll ask you to remove js support in your browser

<darobin> hey, look, it's ArtB: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Palpatine1.jpg

<darobin> Yves: lol

<ArtB> All - can anyone Scribe today's Web Component's call (starts in ~1.5 hours; 12:00 Boston time)?

<dglazkov> yay Web Components call!

<dglazkov> no zakim?

<smaug> oh oh, /me kicks himself for not writing certain algorithm during his vacation. Hopefully after processing the endless review queue...

<dglazkov> well bleep

<dglazkov> no rssagent either

<MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Date: 03 June 2014

<dglazkov> yay

<dglazkov> Anyone wants to chat about theming?

<dglazkov> :)

<dglazkov> The problem as I understand it:

<dglazkov> 1) there is a need for an indirection mechanism between the shadow tree and the outside environment (main document, for example)

<dglazkov> 2) to enable developers inside shadow trees to opt into some future styling

<dglazkov> 3) and enable developers outside shadow trees to supply this styling

<dglazkov> there are several primitives we tried or have currently

<dglazkov> a) CSS custom properties (artists formerly known as CSS Variables)

<hayato_> I can only chat. :)

<dglazkov> b) ::part (see some early conclusions here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013JulSep/0454.html)

<dglazkov> c) /deep/ combinator

<dglazkov> another possible primitive is the ability to add stylesheets directly to ShadowRoot.stylesheets collection. Although not directly a theming primitive, it would allow authors of frameworks to build the indirection plumbing by selectively adding stylesheets to shadow trees that need theming.

<dglazkov> there are limitations and problems with every one of these. I should probably write this down as a list.

<dglazkov> let me start with that. hayato_ and I will work on this and send to public-webapps

<dglazkov> hayato_: what do you think about moving this meeting to a TOK-friendly time

<dglazkov> at least then I'll have more peeps joining :)

<hayato_> dglazkov: Yes as long as most people can join.

<dglazkov> let's try it. I'll post to public-webapps and check with ArtB

<dglazkov> okay, looks like we solved ALL The problems!

<hayato_> It's a piece of cake.

<dglazkov> yay dael!

<dael> Hi and bye!

<dglazkov> :)

<dglazkov> trackbot: please make the minutes

<trackbot> Sorry, dglazkov, I don't understand 'trackbot: please make the minutes'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.

<hayato_> let me have a SIP client by the next meeting

<dglazkov> RRSAgent: please make the minutes!

<dglazkov> LOL

<dglazkov> trackbot, end meeting

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: barstow add http://w3c.github.io/filesystem-api/Overview.html to PubStatus [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/05/27-webapps-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.138 (CVS log)
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Found Date: 03 Jun 2014
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