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23:59:58 <Travis> zakim, this is DOM3
23:59:58 <Zakim> Travis, I see RWC_WAPI(D3E)8:00PM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be DOM3".
00:00:09 <Travis> zakim, this will be DOM3
00:00:10 <Zakim> ok, Travis; I see RWC_WAPI(D3E)8:00PM scheduled to start now
00:00:25 <Travis> Present+ Travis
00:00:36 <Travis> Present+ Garykac
00:00:50 <Travis> Scribe: Travis
00:01:00 <Travis> ScribeNick: Travis
00:01:30 <masayuki> Hi,
00:02:02 <Travis> Hi!
00:02:52 <garykac> garykac has joined #webapps
00:03:42 <Zakim> RWC_WAPI(D3E)8:00PM has now started
00:03:49 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
00:04:14 <Travis> Zakim, [Microsoft] is travis and garykac
00:04:14 <Zakim> I don't understand '[Microsoft] is travis and garykac', Travis
00:04:21 <Travis> Zakim, [Microsoft] is travis
00:04:21 <Zakim> +travis; got it
00:04:30 <Travis> (and garykac)
00:06:23 <garykac> We have trimmed a bunch of content from the D3E spec.
00:06:35 <garykac> Basically, the stuff that is already covered in DOM4.
00:06:50 <Travis> (Related to bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25485)
00:07:47 <garykac> We're still in the process of fixing up all the links and text so that it properly refers to right place for each event.
00:09:06 <Travis> Masayuki, you filed a new bug recently: Bug 25888 - The definition of .key value of "RomanCharacters"
00:09:14 <Travis> Would you like to discuss it?
00:09:31 <masayuki> Yeah.
00:10:09 <masayuki> It's strange. Although, I've not checked the Korean IME behavior yet.
00:12:02 <masayuki> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/KeyboardEvent.key
00:12:50 <masayuki> "Romaji" is not only mapped with Japanese keyboard layout on Gecko. But the key value is grouped in Korean keyboard specific key value.
00:13:21 <masayuki> I'm not sure if it's needed for Korean keyboard layout, though.
00:14:38 <masayuki> "GDK_Hangul_Romaja" might be mapped with "Romaji". However, I don't know when this keysym is used on Linux's Korean keyboard layout.
00:16:47 <masayuki> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc194846.aspx
00:17:33 <masayuki> If there is no explanation about Romaja...
00:17:35 <Travis> Either RomanCharacters is moved up to the table above, or we split it out into two.
00:17:38 <garykac> Yes, it looks like a Romaji key is missing from Japanese
00:18:30 <masayuki> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Korean
00:18:32 <garykac> I'm fine with it being 2 separate keys: Romaji (J) and Youngja (K)
00:19:23 <masayuki> Separating the key value sounds good to me because they never conflict since they are used different keyboard layout.
00:19:52 <Travis> Agree -- this seems like the right thing to do.
00:22:08 <Travis> Looking at the spelling of "Young" and "Youngja"..
00:22:27 <masayuki> And trivial question, "Keys specific to Korean keyboards" and "Keys specific to Japanese keyboards" are not sorted from A to Z. Is it intentional?
00:22:42 <Travis> Might be "Yeong" and "Yeongja"
00:24:31 <garykac> I just noticed that the Korean Hangul <-> roman key is already covered by HangulMode.
00:26:21 <masayuki> Yeah, but X11 (?) defines a lot of Hangul specific keysym. And we are still not sure the mapping with .key value. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=865564#c5
00:26:38 <garykac> So I think that we just need to move RomanCharacters into the Japanese section and rename it Romaji.
00:26:40 <masayuki> We don't have enough number of contributors of Korean...
00:27:03 <garykac> We can add more Korean keys as needed - we just need to see them on a keyboard to prove they exist.
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00:30:38 <garykac> Masayuki: I just updated the keys: I added Romaji, removed RomanCharacters and sorted the Japanese/Korean IME keys.  Please take a look.
00:31:02 <masayuki> Checking if each of them exists is very difficult because I'm not familiar with Korean IMEs...
00:31:47 <masayuki> garykac: Great, thanks!
00:34:35 <masayuki> Ah, and I have information. Firefox 32 will support KeyboardEvent.code at least for physical keyboard on all OSes. Probably, it's not enabled with 32's release build in default settings. But starting with 33, it would be enabled.
00:35:03 <garykac> Wahoo!
00:35:51 <garykac> I'm still trying to get an estimate for when this'll be in Chomium/Blink.
00:37:52 <masayuki> The mapping table is here. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/KeyboardEvent.code Note that it might be updated with some bug fix.
00:47:05 <Travis> This is excellent.
00:47:39 <Travis> Other than that bug, is there anything else we need to review today?
00:47:52 <garykac> Masayuki: That table looks very nice - I've always liked the MDN docs.
00:48:19 <masayuki> garykac: Thanks.
00:48:43 <masayuki> Travis: I don't have anymore.
00:52:05 <garykac> OK. So until next week. We are hoping to have all the bugs resolved by then (or maybe only one or two that require discussion).
00:52:45 <garykac> We'll probably get the |key| and |code| specs ready for release first.
00:53:04 <garykac> That way, we'll get proper URLs for them that we can use to update the main D3E spec.
00:53:13 <garykac> Then we'll release D3E.
00:53:22 <garykac> (...finally)
00:56:09 <masayuki> See you.
00:57:38 <Travis> rrsagent, please make the minutes
00:57:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/27-webapps-minutes.html Travis
00:57:46 <Travis> rrsagent, make logs public
01:05:01 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, travis, in RWC_WAPI(D3E)8:00PM
01:05:02 <Zakim> RWC_WAPI(D3E)8:00PM has ended
01:05:02 <Zakim> Attendees were travis
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12:17:21 <ArtB> yves - yt?
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12:39:20 <ArtB> nm yves (see https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/271 )
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21:47:40 <smaug> why http://www.w3.org/TR/file-system-api/ misses the content
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13:56:32 <smaug> ArtB: do you know why http://www.w3.org/TR/file-system-api/ doesn't seem to have any content
13:56:55 <smaug> well, it has "Abstract" and  "Status of This Document"
13:57:02 <darobin> smaug: "Work on this document has been discontinued and it should not be referenced or used as a basis for implementation."
13:57:12 <ArtB> smaug, the group agreed to stop working on it, thus it was published as a NOTE
13:57:24 <darobin> if you want content, go to the ED or the previous version
13:57:28 <smaug> ArtB: sure
13:57:32 <darobin> smaug: it's a tombstone
13:57:35 <ArtB> what darobin said
13:57:35 <smaug> oh, Notes don't have content these days?
13:57:43 <ArtB> they can smaug
13:57:58 <darobin> smaug: it deliberately has no content because its sole purpose is to indicate that there's nothing to see there
13:58:09 <smaug> I see
13:58:11 <ArtB> the reason we started gutting them is to make sure there was no technical differences between the ED and the last TR
13:58:24 <ArtB> s/the reason/one reason/
13:58:40 <smaug> ok, thanks
13:58:46 <darobin> smaug: because what happens otherwise is that people go "Oooooh, wonderful! A Web Standard (from 1972) just for what I want!"
13:58:54 <darobin> and they implement, or pester implementers, etc
13:58:59 <smaug> (someone was just asking me about the status of file apis)
13:59:05 <ArtB> yeah, we really don't want people to implement Notes
13:59:19 <ArtB> yes, I saw Arun replied
13:59:30 <ArtB> I still have that in my Inbox
13:59:51 <ArtB> I was going to reply with a link to the Mozilla proposal that is still active in WebApps
14:00:39 <ArtB> http://w3c.github.io/filesystem-api/Overview.html
14:00:49 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow add http://w3c.github.io/filesystem-api/Overview.html to PubStatus
14:00:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-730 - Add http://w3c.github.io/filesystem-api/overview.html to pubstatus [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-06-10].
14:03:25 <darobin> ArtB: I'm curious what your opinion is about the megamerge proposal
14:04:43 <ArtB> smaug, will do
14:07:12 <ArtB> darobin, I'd like to understand the `problem statement`
14:07:45 <ArtB> IOW, if a merge is an `answer`, what exactly is the question?
14:08:37 <darobin> ArtB: I can't claim to speak for the originator of the idea, but I can say why I like it
14:08:55 <ArtB> please do
14:08:57 <darobin> there's a lot of overlap in membership, and there's a move towards pretty much the same work style
14:09:05 <darobin> the separation feels arbitrary
14:09:13 <darobin> DOM in HTML, D3Ev in WA
14:09:23 <darobin> HTML in HTML, innerHTML in WA
14:09:28 <darobin> etc.
14:09:34 <ArtB> but can you point to any specific problems that arise from the current structure?
14:09:37 <darobin> I think the issues and solutions are the same
14:09:45 <ArtB> is there some feedback or input that isn't being submitted?
14:09:58 <darobin> well, people who aren't experts don't know where to look, whereas the new beast would be the whole of the core WP
14:10:07 <darobin> there is, but that's an orthogonal issue
14:10:29 <darobin> people are quite confused for instance with the editing stuff
14:10:53 <darobin> Selection, Events are in WA, but the attribute and a bunch of other behaviours are in HTML; whereas the project clearly has some coordination unity
14:11:04 <darobin> to the point where I'm really thinking "joint TF" for editing
14:11:11 <darobin> (and I don't like joint TFs :)
14:11:19 <Yves> and what about sysapps? ;)
14:11:42 <darobin> Yves: *web* platform ;)
14:11:44 <ArtB> I can think of some + and -
14:11:49 <ArtB> would like to hear from others
14:12:18 <ArtB> my recollection from being a `fly on the wall` for PSIG is that some Member abhor mega groups
14:12:29 <darobin> yeah, but I want to leave that aside for now
14:12:52 <darobin> IP issues exist, we can cross that bridge if we agree that doing this is a good idea in the first place
14:12:58 <ArtB> but it turns out the only thing W3C has going for it is Patent Policy ;-)
14:13:11 <darobin> if it's a bad idea, let's not trouble our pretty heads with lawyery stuff
14:13:17 <darobin> heh
14:13:24 <darobin> and its sexy chairs
14:13:54 <ArtB> oh yeah, and that ;)
14:14:18 <ArtB> are you going to be at the AC meeting next week darobin?
14:14:24 <darobin> nope
14:14:29 <ArtB> oh, bummer
14:14:38 <ArtB> I think Sam is going to raise the topic
14:14:39 <darobin> I'm trying not to travel more than strictly necessary
14:14:42 <darobin> yes, he is
14:14:44 <Yves> to paraphrase Peter's principle "a successful WG will get to do more and more work to the point it will become ineffective"
14:15:15 <darobin> ArtB: it would simplify bringing CC to WebApps, too
14:15:55 <ArtB> I suspect the CC shipped has sailed given the precedence but that's a bit of a hunch
14:15:57 <darobin> I'm assuming that that WG would have the momentum to rewrite pretty much any part of the Process :)
14:16:31 <ArtB> WorkMode trumps ProcDoc; the anarchist side of me kinda' likes that
14:16:50 <darobin> well, that's not actually true, but it's cool to act like it does :)
14:16:58 <ArtB> s/WebAppsWG/LordOfTheFliesWG/
14:17:21 <darobin> what with two chairs on the AB and all
14:17:45 <darobin> the Consortium within the Consortium
14:17:53 <darobin> the shadow behind the Director's Throne
14:18:00 <ArtB> hey, cwilso is a WebApps member too
14:18:11 <darobin> yeah, so is Tantek IIRC
14:18:27 <darobin> plus most of the TAG
14:19:05 <darobin> it's, like, the only other WG is the CSS WG — and who cares about a bunch of sissies making pretty colours for shit?
14:20:10 <Yves> don't be harsh to them or they'll ask you to remove js support in your browser
14:20:14 <darobin> hey, look, it's ArtB: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Palpatine1.jpg
14:20:23 <darobin> Yves: lol
14:25:24 <ArtB> All - can anyone Scribe today's Web Component's call (starts in ~1.5 hours; 12:00 Boston time)?
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15:56:59 <dglazkov> yay Web Components call!
15:58:04 <dglazkov> no zakim?
15:58:05 <smaug> oh oh, /me kicks himself for not writing certain algorithm during his vacation. Hopefully after processing the endless review queue...
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15:58:33 <dglazkov> Zakim, dude, where are you
15:58:56 <dglazkov> well bleep
16:02:04 <dglazkov> no rssagent either
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16:03:37 <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
16:03:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:03:41 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be DOM3
16:03:42 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
16:03:42 <trackbot> Date: 03 June 2014
16:03:42 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:03:55 <MikeSmith> zakim, list
16:03:55 <Zakim> I see SW_HCLS()11:00AM, WAI_WCAG()11:00AM, T&S_DNTC()12:00PM, HTML_WG()11:00AM, Team_(wai)18:03Z, Team_(ua)17:00Z, XML_ET-TF()11:00AM, RWC_WAPI()12:00PM, WAI_PFWG(HTML_TF)1:00PM,
16:03:58 <Zakim> ... Team_W3M()8:00AM active
16:03:58 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time is RWC_PEWG()11:00AM
16:04:44 <ArtB> zakim, this is RWC_WAPI
16:04:45 <Zakim> ok, ArtB; that matches RWC_WAPI()12:00PM
16:04:48 <dglazkov> yay
16:04:53 <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
16:04:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Google]
16:04:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see lmclister, lgombos, skddc, ed, rubys, chaals, ArtB, smaug, darobin, BenjamP1, karl, stryx`, heycam|away, kochi1, kochi, mounir, logbot, paul___irish, terri, RRSAgent,
16:04:54 <Zakim> ... Hixie, krijnhoetmer, shepazu, kentaromiura, dcooney_, schuki, timeless_, hayato_, dfreedm__, scheib___, slightlyoff, cwilso, FerasM_, astearns, tobie_, dglazkov, jsbell,
16:04:54 <Zakim> ... cabanier, Domenic, gavin_, esprehn, pdr, MikeSmith, tyoshino, krit, gsnedders, trackbot, Yves, decadance, jgraham
16:05:03 <dglazkov> Zakim, [Google] is dglazkov
16:05:03 <Zakim> +dglazkov; got it
16:07:04 <dglazkov> Anyone wants to chat about theming?
16:07:06 <dglazkov> :)
16:07:22 <dglazkov> The problem as I understand it:
16:08:04 <dglazkov> 1) there is a need for an indirection mechanism between the shadow tree and the outside environment (main document, for example)
16:08:39 <dglazkov> 2) to enable developers inside shadow trees to opt into some future styling
16:08:55 <dglazkov> 3) and enable developers outside shadow trees to supply this styling
16:09:09 <dglazkov> there are several primitives we tried or have currently
16:09:36 <dglazkov> a) CSS custom properties (artists formerly known as CSS Variables)
16:10:21 <hayato_> I can only chat.  :)
16:10:29 <dglazkov> b) ::part (see some early conclusions here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013JulSep/0454.html)
16:10:39 <dglazkov> c) /deep/ selector
16:11:21 <dglazkov> s/selector/combinator
16:13:04 <dglazkov> another possible primitive is the ability to add stylesheets directly to ShadowRoot.stylesheets collection. Although not directly a theming primitive, it would allow authors of frameworks to build the indirection plumbing by selectively adding stylesheets to shadow trees that need theming.
16:14:18 <dglazkov> there are limitations and problems with every one of these. I should probably write this down as a list.
16:14:55 <dglazkov> let me start with that. hayato_ and I will work on this and send to public-webapps
16:15:38 <dglazkov> hayato_: what do you think about moving this meeting to a TOK-friendly time
16:15:50 <dglazkov> at least then I'll have more peeps joining :)
16:17:09 <hayato_> dglazkov: Yes as long as most people can join.
16:17:52 <dglazkov> let's try it. I'll post to public-webapps and check with ArtB
16:18:24 <dglazkov> okay, looks like we solved ALL The problems!
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16:20:07 <hayato_> It's a piece of cake.
16:20:30 <Zakim> +dael
16:21:28 <dglazkov> yay dael!
16:21:43 <Zakim> -dael
16:21:56 <dael> Hi and bye!
16:22:00 <dglazkov> :)
16:22:11 <dglazkov> trackbot: please make the minutes
16:22:11 <trackbot> Sorry, dglazkov, I don't understand 'trackbot: please make the minutes'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
16:22:17 <hayato_> let me have a SIP client by the next meeting
16:22:23 <dglazkov> RRSAgent: please make the minutes!
16:22:23 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make the minutes!', dglazkov.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:22:28 <dglazkov> LOL
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16:23:19 <dglazkov> trackbot, end meeting
16:23:19 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:23:19 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been dglazkov, dael
16:23:27 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:23:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/27-webapps-minutes.html trackbot
16:23:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:23:28 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/03-webapps-actions.rdf :
16:23:28 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow add http://w3c.github.io/filesystem-api/Overview.html to PubStatus [1]
16:23:28 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/05/27-webapps-irc#T14-00-49