Web and Mobile Interest Group Teleconference

16 Apr 2014


See also: IRC log


schuki, marcosc, dom, +, Mohammed_D, larsgk?, +1.405.708.aacc, bshambaugh, kawada_, larsgk, [IPcaller], tobie__, Bryan_Sullivan


<trackbot> Date: 16 April 2014

<schuki> scribe: marcos

<schuki> scribenick: marcosc

<schuki> oh talk going on about tests in #webtv

<schuki> lol marcosc i should have asked if you're still ok to scribe?

<schuki> hi bshambaugh!

<larsgk> marcosc: thanks - was away from the computer. This is the first time I join here - how does the irc vs voice work? - transcripts in both or just here for pasting code and such?

larsgk: sorry, was in meeting
... we just write the minutes + make fun of each other in IRC :)

<larsgk> marcosc: ok - then you can make fun of me if I don't manage to get the SIP working :D

<larsgk> I can hear you but nobody hears me I guess

<larsgk> ?

<schuki> :/

<larsgk> sorry

<larsgk> I can hear you

larsgk, np... we will get you sorted

<larsgk> ubuntu 13.10 - trying a different client..


<schuki> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Meetings#Teleconference_Dates_.26_Times


<scribe> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-mobile/2014Apr/0009.html

<schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/ServiceWorker/tree/master/examples


<bshambaugh> Hello WebMob

<bshambaugh> yes

schuki: the WebApps WG is currently working on this.

<larsgk> went mute

schuki: I've made a fork of the service worker repo. I've been gathering, use cases from various folks. In the Gh repo, you will see the use cases, etc. As a group, we should work on these use cases or put them into an application.

<schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/ServiceWorker/tree/master/examples

schuki: we currently don't have any real implementations that we can work from - from the browser vendors. Chrome and FireFox are hoping to support this soon. But even though there is no implementation, we can start working it regardless. Anyone can start working on this.
... please just pick a GH issue

<schuki> marcosc: i think there may be too many things

<schuki> ... maybe we should gather them into a list

<larsgk> short bio: Lars Knudsen, have worked with mobile web tech since 2001 in larger companies, in Nokia N9/WebKit2/MeeGo team until mid 2012, experience with browser and webkit src, qa of APIs and browser, "evangelist for the common avg joe web developer"


<schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/ServiceWorker/issues/37

<schuki> marcosc: merge some, make apps which show more use cases

<schuki> ... better if we have fewer things, so we don't over promise


<schuki> marcosc: if we gather into a separate dir, with targets to hit, hit three per app, this would be more achievable

tobie: I just a contract with Mozilla to help them with their service workers imp
... so all of this should converge
... the other thing that is interesting, there is an implementation that use Node

schuki: it will be great to have Tobie working on SWs so he can keep us up to date
... I have had some interest from some people to work on this
... I will add those people to the wiki

device orientation

<schuki> marcosc: larsgk is also trying to work on this

<tobie__> node.js serviceworker polyfill https://github.com/phuu/serviceworker-polyfill/

<schuki> marcosc: our group is well suited to making a contribution to this discussion

<schuki> ... bringing in all problems like in net info

<schuki> ... larsgk can you give an overview?

<dom> (probably relevant, https://github.com/w3c/deviceorientation/issues/4 )

<schuki> larsgk: i worked in nokia on the n9 browser

<schuki> larsgk: we thought about how there aren't many web game devs

<tobie__> +1 to orientation lock being an issue for game dev.

<schuki> ... the device orientation is an issue here

<schuki> larsgk: symbian was portrait devices, some others were landscape

<schuki> ... this meant games mapped differently per device

<schuki> marcosc: cool!

larsgk: I've been working with web tech for many years. I used to work with Nokia on one of their browsers as a developer evangelist - bridging between browser devs and web devs. What we saw inside Nokia is that different teams has implemented the x, y, z, differently (MC: also happened on Android). The current specs seem to confuse implementers. It's pretty important that when we do these specs we are more clear. We need to have a holistic vi

ew of the APIs with regards to accelerometer data, etc.

to keep things simple, the w3c should decide what is the default for all devices for orientation (i.e., what is "up").

larsgk: we need to have a holistic view that makes orientation consistent across the platform

<Zakim> dom, you wanted to comment on renewed work on device orientation in renewed geo wg

dom: I agree that developing a holistic view. Just in terms of FYI, the geolocation WG, which is responsible for device orientation, is being restarted. Richt and other in that group have also started to look into this. In any case, it would be extremely useful to define this. We need a volunteer to work on this.

<larsgk> I will do my best to provide examples and input

larsgk: it would be fine - but we really need this to enable gaming on the Web. I'm willing to put in a lot of hours into this. I can work with kenneth also on this to provide even more inputs.

<larsgk> larsgk@gmail.com

<larsgk> larsgk

<larsgk> :)

<larsgk> on github

<dom> [we should also lists all the specs we know are affected by device orientation]

<scribe> ACTION: Marcos to set up GH for orientation work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/16-webmob-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-102 - Set up gh for orientation work [on Marcos Caceres - due 2014-04-23].

marcosc: I'll add kenneth and the rest of the orientation people

<larsgk> dom: a mini dependency graph around "anything orientation" might actually be good (something that could/should be done in general on web standards related to one another)

<dom> +1

<dom> yes, orientation links to portrait/landscape which links to window dimensions

tobie__: I don't have much to add... except that it is great to look at this in detail. The whole portrait/lanscape thing takes a whole different color on desktop browsers...

<larsgk> thoughts ^ ?

tobie__: ... on desktop the semantics are different from mobile
... the second point, we need to align with the CSS people.
... device orientation, orientation locking, and CSS ... it would be extemely useful for this group to describe what areas/groups are touched by this

dom: yes, I agree.

<larsgk> marcosc: on desktop we don't need lock.. but if say "laptop" with tablet features... then it should work exactly the same as mobile.. actually. ?

tobie__: we also need consider watches and non-square user interfaces ... as the currently language that we are using in these specs is problematic

larsgk: I agree.

<larsgk> consider "degrees" .. e.g. "0 deg", 90 180, etc.

<larsgk> where 0 deg ~ portrait up ~ (x,y,z)=(0,1,0)

Installable Web Apps

<schuki> marcosc: some news

<schuki> ... microsoft said they are interested, i am hoping to patch up the doc and send it to them

<schuki> ... they feel some of their use cases are not addressed

<schuki> ... mainly related to needs of their store

<schuki> ... they want to use it for their packaged apps too

<schuki> marcosc: Google also gave some positive signals

<schuki> ... orientation is one of the things holding up the draft

Coord with Cordova

dom: a few weeks ago I spoke with the cordova/phonegap folks



<dom> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-mobile/2014Feb/0051.html http://markmail.org/thread/yd3fnaixzw2aln7e

dom: lets you build packaged apps to target a range of platforms... they provide APIs for device access. Currently the W3C and Cordova APIs don't align
... I'm hoping to work with Cordova to align the APIs ... and to get more feedback from the Cordova community back to the W3C

<larsgk> in my experience: cordova is pretty slow compared to crosswalk - if possible to package crosswalk without the JIT/V8 it would be great (or port/contribute to cordova to make it faster)?

dom: tonight, I'm going to join a hangout with with the Cordova ... will report back

<larsgk> (without the V8 for iOS)

schuki: is there any particular APIs that they are looking at in particular?

<dom> http://markmail.org/thread/yd3fnaixzw2aln7e links to the issues that highlight the divergence between our APIs and theirs

dom: they have about 14 or 15 APIs, but most don't align

tobie__: my understanding is that they are not packaging a runtime?

larsgk: iOS doesn't allow it

tobie__: I was wondering if they are doing something different on other platforms?

dom: I think they might let you pick a webview on Android

tobie: the second point I want to make: when they don't provide the runtime, it is very hard for them to implement particular APIs. This might make it difficult to implement particular features (e.g., ones that depend on parsing HTML)

tobie__: another problem is that bridge and native system has to be asynchronous.

larsgk: I think this might be an WebKit 2 related issue....

tobie__: the bridge can only be set up asynch and some APIs can only be used after "deviceready" event fires. This makes for some strange APIs. This makes things very hard to test sometimes.

<larsgk> sync/async: we will probably not get away from that in the future anyway (async = better UI speed, etc. often) - but wasn't e.g. the orientation lock async (at least the spqc at some point) - e.g. "ask for lock, function(result({...})"

dom: I looked a bit at testing as a motivation for this work. The other big problem is that the APIs don't even bother try to be WebIDL.

marcos: the spec is very hard to read. Lots of people have complained about it being inaccessible

dom: anyway, there is probably not much we can do about that in the short.
... term

<bshambaugh> Hey guys, catch you later. Another call at freenode #payswarm

marcos: we are also trying to do something similar at Mozilla.

<schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/payments-use-cases


schuki: we are done with the payment usecases, as we have handed them over the the Payment CG
... a report has been produced from the Payments CG

<schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/payments-use-cases/issues?state=open

<schuki> thank-you!!!

<schuki> thanks for scribing marcosc

<schuki> :D


dom: yep

just setting up the repo for orientation first

<larsgk> all: sorry for the queue interruptions - I didn't know protocol - thanks for letting me contribute though :)

tobie__: can I add you to team orientation?

<tobie__> sure

larsgk: np! thanks again for joining

<larsgk> thanks for having me :) ttyl

dom, sorry... I can't remember how ot (or don't have sufficient privileges) to make the minutes public?

I told "RRSAgent, set logs public"

but still getting "insufficient privileges"

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Marcos to set up GH for orientation work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/16-webmob-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.138 (CVS log)
$Date: 2014-04-16 15:35:38 $

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Found Scribe: marcos
Found ScribeNick: marcosc
Default Present: schuki, marcosc, dom, +, Mohammed_D, larsgk?, +1.405.708.aacc, bshambaugh, kawada_, larsgk, [IPcaller], tobie__, Bryan_Sullivan
Present: schuki marcosc dom + Mohammed_D larsgk? +1.405.708.aacc bshambaugh kawada_ larsgk [IPcaller] tobie__ Bryan_Sullivan
Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Meetings#Teleconference_Dates_.26_Times

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<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Found Date: 16 Apr 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/04/16-webmob-minutes.html
People with action items: marcos

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