<trackbot> Date: 11 April 2014

<Alan_Smith> Just getting setup for this and my other work call as well.

<Jan_> The BBC doc is also here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2014Mar/att-0007/BBCMobileGuide10_comparison_with_WCAG2UAAG2-rev1.html

<scribe> scribe: jon_avila

Jan will take us through his analysis of the BBC guidelines

Kim: all look at attachment from Kathy on BBC comparison from Jan

kathy: reason of doing this is to leverage what has already been done to see if we can add anything in; best practices; and new techniques.

jan: Wanted to see how BBC mobile S&G sync up w/ WCAG.
... BBC S&G made language more plain and change requirements around
... Created mapping table based on BBC S&G then mapping to most relevant WCAG SC; took input from mobile TF lists and updated som items.
... Some things in BBC that are not in WCAG. e.g. touch targets must be large enough; an inactive space around active elements. These are new.
... at bottom of doc -- there are some WCAG SC that aren't mentioned by the BBC - captions for live content, etc.
... some things were left out for whatever reason. User Agent Accessibility Guidelines are sometimes relevant.
... BBC S&G cover native guides -- hasn't showed all the place where UAAG has crossover.
... Reinforce there is huge crossover between BBC and WCAG. Some new cases for BBC and then point to where WCAG has some relevant things to say that are not in BBC S&G.

<Jan_> http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/futuremedia/accessibility/mobile/forms/labels

jan: sharing example of how techniques are organized.
... iOS and Android w/ code and HTML example. Maybe BBC will be willing to donate example code
... any questions?

kathy: go through unaddressed items. Talk about if we feel there should be something added in the techniques
... process for getting submission from BBC - forms to sign, etc. if they are willing to share examples.
... let's list new items

jan: Let's look at things marked with ampersand -- BBC standards and not numbered. First content must still be readable when styling is removed.
... 1.3.1 would cover this requirement. It's not enough just to convey via style.

<KimPatch> Jon: 1.1.1 covers background images, which are also styles and so potentially could map to this standard

jon_avila: reason for BBC to not include certain WCAG technique is most likely business requirements and needs and not because something wasn't relevant to mobile.

<KimPatch> Jon: there's a technique for background, and reading order – 1.3.2. Basically refers to the fact that you wouldn't turn off stylesheets but if you turn off stylesheets that would be the order that you see, so it's not a hard reference, but implied somewhat

<KimPatch> Not very many people turn off stylesheets

<KimPatch> Mobile devices don't really have a good ability and mobile browsers to turn off stylesheets either. I don't think people are even going to be able to do that. I think we should be concerned about other potential things besides reading order things like headings. I think I'd rather cover all the items. Example: headings

<KimPatch> Jon comments

jan: links and other actionable elements must be clearly distinguishable. Under WCAG more usability. WCAG says don't use color.
... UAAG has highlighted items requirements for certain class of UI including input elements.

<Kathy> http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/futuremedia/accessibility/mobile/design/styling-and-readability

allen: Does this have anything to do with programmatic?

jan: I think they are referring to visual indication of action.

allen: if a role is missing then links aren't announced as links.

<Kathy> http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/futuremedia/accessibility/mobile/design/actionable-elements

jon_avila: I believe this item was able visual indication that action.

kathy: Could be an advisory.

jan: for now under 1.4.1 as advisory.
... touch targets must be large enough to touch accurately.

kahty: could be under keyboard access?

kathleen: wondering about touch target that are images. Would page zoom assist?

jan: WCAG is assuming there is a user agent layer on top. Nothing for size in UAAG.

Jeanne: Just say this a gap that we need to do something about it.

jon_avila: Correction Jeanne not Kim in previous comment.

jan: inactive space around active elments.

kathy: also a gap

<Kathy> http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/futuremedia/accessibility/mobile/design/spacing

jan: could be from target center -- really issue is with small targets.

kathy: asks Jan to update matrix to indicate.

jan: When zoom is supported on the platform it must not be surpresed.
... this covers apps, web pages, text, images, etc.
... some inverse colors are filters -- others like IE have contrast settings that can be changed.
... IE was referring to Android browser.

kathy: resize text -- been a lot of discussion about user agent.
... on iOS text size propogation is issue in browser. This item is more of a user agent one.

Jeanne: we should identify this as a UAAG.

<Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say that I think this is more an app feature, and we could identify it as a gap and note that it primarily applies to mobile apps

<jeanne> jeanne: Changed my mind and say that we should say that UAAG covers it.

Jon_avila: SC 1.4.4 not accessibility supported on iOS as there is no override.

kathy: some techniques that could be created on both sides. Also indicate that it's UAAG.
... Call out UAAG work and then create techniques.

jan: Zoom and text resize are different. Should we take this to mean zoom in general? Large text should flow from accessibility to apps.

kathy: need techniques under 1.4.4.

jan: link text should not be repeated.

kathy: sounds like usability?

jon_avila: sufficient technique for that already -- not a failure.

jan: controls objects and grouped objects must be represented as a single element. This would be covered under information and relationship. Also possible under name, role, value 4.1.2

jon_avila: intent was to group stars in rating rather than each star in rating.

<Kathy> http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/futuremedia/accessibility/mobile/structure/duplicated-links

jon_avila: could be cases where it would be failure although not always.

<kathleen> http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/futuremedia/accessibility/mobile/links/repeated-links

kim: 5 minutes before end of all - we are about half way through.
... who is not going to be around next week? We may cancel next week's meeting.

jan: I am around on the 25th to finish this task.

Other guidelines

kim: other guidelines are the IBM guidelines and Funka Nu

Kathy: aslo have Korean guidelines

kim: Two sets on Funka Nu. Is there anyone willing to take this on as a team?

Allen: will take IBM guidelines by himself.

kim: URL is in wiki resources document.

kathy: offer to take part of Funka Nu.

Jeanne: offer to answer questions about UAAG.

kim: Cancel next week. Give Allen and Kathy a chance to get started on other guidelines. Pick up on 25th to finish BBC S&G. Thanks to Allen for doing rest of general techniques.

allen: May have some questions - but has put together a good overview.

Adjacent link text: http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20140311/H2

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Found Scribe: jon_avila
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Default Present: Kim_Patch, Kathy_Wahlbin, Alan_Smith, +1.910.278.aaaa, kathleen, Jeanne, Jan, [IPcaller], WuWei
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Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2014Apr/0005.html
Found Date: 11 Apr 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/04/11-mobile-a11y-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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