13:31:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
13:31:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/11-mobile-a11y-irc
13:31:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:31:30 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y
13:31:32 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
13:31:32 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_MATF()10:00AM scheduled to start in 29 minutes
13:31:33 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
13:31:33 <trackbot> Date: 11 April 2014
13:32:36 <KimPatch> chair: Kimberly_Patch
13:40:08 <wwu> wwu has joined #mobile-a11y
13:41:58 <KimPatch> agenda+ Jan will take us through his analysis of the BBC guidelines
13:41:59 <KimPatch> agenda+ Other guidelines
13:42:01 <KimPatch> agenda+ Next Steps – next meeting will be Friday April 18
13:42:54 <Alan_Smith> Alan_Smith has joined #mobile-a11y
13:43:25 <Alan_Smith> Just getting setup for this and my other work call as well.
13:44:11 <KimPatch> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2014Apr/0005.html
13:44:32 <KimPatch> agenda?
13:49:54 <wwu> wwu has joined #mobile-a11y
13:51:13 <Zakim> WAI_MATF()10:00AM has now started
13:51:20 <Zakim> +Kim_Patch
13:55:57 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #mobile-a11y
13:56:20 <kathleen> kathleen has joined #mobile-a11y
13:56:53 <Zakim> +Kathy_Wahlbin
13:56:57 <Zakim> +Alan_Smith
13:58:37 <Zakim> + +1.910.278.aaaa
13:58:50 <kathleen> zakim, aaaa is me
13:58:50 <Zakim> +kathleen; got it
14:00:50 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #mobile-a11y
14:01:22 <Zakim> +Jeanne
14:01:45 <Jan_> Jan_ has joined #mobile-a11y
14:02:20 <Jan_> Jan_ has joined #mobile-a11y
14:03:27 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:03:45 <Jan_> zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
14:03:45 <Zakim> +Jan; got it
14:04:15 <jon_avila> jon_avila has joined #mobile-a11y
14:04:50 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:04:57 <jon_avila> zakim, I am ipcaller
14:04:57 <Zakim> ok, jon_avila, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
14:07:06 <Zakim> +WuWei
14:07:46 <Jan_> The BBC doc is also here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2014Mar/att-0007/BBCMobileGuide10_comparison_with_WCAG2UAAG2-rev1.html
14:08:22 <jon_avila> scribe: jon_avila
14:08:27 <jon_avila> zakim, take up first item
14:08:27 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up first item', jon_avila
14:08:38 <Kathy> zakim, take up next
14:08:38 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Jan will take us through his analysis of the BBC guidelines" taken up [from KimPatch]
14:08:40 <jon_avila> zakim, take up next
14:08:41 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, jon_avila
14:09:21 <jon_avila> Kim: all look at attachment from Kathy on BBC comparison from Jan
14:10:10 <jon_avila> kathy: reason of doing this is to leverage what has already been done to see if we can add anything in; best practices; and new techniques.
14:10:55 <jon_avila> jan:  Wanted to see how BBC mobile S&G sync up w/ WCAG.
14:11:25 <jon_avila> jan: BBC S&G made language more plain and change requirements around
14:11:53 <jon_avila> jan: Created mapping table based on BBC S&G then mapping to most relevant WCAG SC; took input from mobile TF lists and updated som items.
14:12:26 <jon_avila> jan: Some things in BBC that are not in WCAG.  e.g. touch targets must be large enough; an inactive space around active elements. These are new.
14:12:57 <jon_avila> jan: at bottom of doc -- there are some WCAG SC that aren't mentioned by the BBC - captions for live content, etc.
14:13:31 <jon_avila> jan: some things were left out for whatever reason.  User Agent Accessibility Guidelines are sometimes relevant.
14:13:57 <jon_avila> jan: BBC S&G cover native guides -- hasn't showed all the place where UAAG has crossover.
14:14:29 <jon_avila> jan: Reinforce there is huge crossover between BBC and WCAG.  Some new cases for BBC and then point to where WCAG has some relevant things to say that are not in BBC S&G.
14:14:46 <Jan_> http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/futuremedia/accessibility/mobile/forms/labels
14:14:54 <jon_avila> jan: sharing example of how techniques are organized.
14:15:46 <jon_avila> jan: iOS and Android w/ code and HTML example.  Maybe BBC will be willing to donate example code
14:15:49 <jon_avila> jan: any questions?
14:16:31 <jon_avila> kathy: go through unaddressed items.  Talk about if we feel there should be something added in the techniques
14:17:11 <jon_avila> q+
14:17:37 <jon_avila> kathy: process for getting submission from BBC - forms to sign, etc. if they are willing to share examples.
14:18:02 <jon_avila> kathy: let's list new items
14:18:34 <jon_avila> jan: Let's look at things marked with ampersand -- BBC standards and not numbered. First content must still be readable when styling is removed.
14:18:55 <jon_avila> jan: 1.3.1 would cover this requirement. It's not enough just to convey via style.
14:19:27 <jon_avila> q?
14:19:32 <jon_avila> q+
14:19:55 <jon_avila> zakim, I am ipcaller
14:19:55 <Zakim> ok, jon_avila, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
14:21:43 <KimPatch> Jon: 1.1.1 covers background images, which are also styles and so potentially could map to this standard
14:22:18 <jon_avila> jon_avila: reason for BBC to not include certain WCAG technique is most likely business requirements and needs and not because something wasn't relevant to mobile.
14:22:33 <jon_avila> q+
14:25:26 <KimPatch> Jon: there's a technique for background, and reading order – 1.3.2. Basically refers to the fact that you wouldn't turn off stylesheets but if you turn off stylesheets that would be the order that you see, so it's not a hard reference, but implied somewhat
14:25:27 <KimPatch> Not very many people turn off stylesheets
14:25:29 <KimPatch> Mobile devices don't really have a good ability and mobile browsers to turn off stylesheets either. I don't think people are even going to be able to do that. I think we should be concerned about other potential things besides reading order things like headings. I think I'd rather cover all the items. Example: headings
14:25:56 <KimPatch> Jon comments
14:26:28 <jon_avila> jan: links and other actionable elements must be clearly distinguishable.  Under WCAG more usability.  WCAG says don't use color.
14:26:53 <jon_avila> jan: UAAG has highlighted items requirements for certain class of UI including input elements.
14:27:11 <jon_avila> q+
14:27:13 <Kathy> http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/futuremedia/accessibility/mobile/design/styling-and-readability
14:27:39 <jon_avila> allen: Does this have anything to do with programmatic?
14:27:48 <jon_avila> jan: I think they are referring to visual indication of action.
14:28:08 <jon_avila> allen: if a role is missing then links aren't announced as links.
14:28:18 <jon_avila> q?
14:28:37 <Kathy> http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/futuremedia/accessibility/mobile/design/actionable-elements
14:30:21 <jon_avila> jon_avila: I believe this item was able visual indication that action.
14:30:33 <jon_avila> kathy: Could be an advisory.
14:31:47 <jon_avila> jan: for now under 1.4.1 as advisory.
14:32:06 <jon_avila> jan: touch targets must be large enough to touch accurately.
14:32:13 <jon_avila> kahty: could be under keyboard access?
14:32:14 <kathleen> q+
14:32:56 <jon_avila> kathleen: wondering about touch target that are images.  Would page zoom assist?
14:33:14 <jon_avila> jan: WCAG is assuming there is a user agent layer on top.  Nothing for size in UAAG.
14:33:26 <kathleen> q-
14:33:39 <jon_avila> q-
14:34:15 <jon_avila> Kim: Just say this a gap that we need to do something about it.
14:34:42 <jon_avila> q?
14:35:17 <Kathy> s|Kim|Jeanne|
14:35:18 <jon_avila> jon_avila: Correction Jeanne not Kim in previous comment.
14:35:54 <jon_avila> jan: inactive space around active elments.
14:36:00 <jon_avila> kathy: also a gap
14:36:37 <Kathy> http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/futuremedia/accessibility/mobile/design/spacing
14:37:11 <jon_avila> jan: could be from target center -- really issue is with small targets.
14:37:32 <jon_avila> kathy: asks Jan to update matrix to indicate.
14:38:06 <kathleen> q+
14:38:10 <jon_avila> jan: When zoom is supported on the platform it must not be surpresed.
14:38:11 <Kathy> q+
14:38:35 <jon_avila> jan: this covers apps, web pages, text, images, etc.
14:39:31 <jon_avila> jan: some inverse colors are filters -- others like IE have contrast settings that can be changed.
14:39:39 <jon_avila> q+
14:40:11 <kathleen> q-
14:40:14 <jeanne> q+ to say that I think this is more an app feature, and we could identify it as a gap and note that it primarily applies to mobile apps
14:40:22 <jon_avila> jan: IE was referring to Android browser.
14:40:45 <jon_avila> kathy: resize text -- been a lot of discussion about user agent.
14:41:29 <jon_avila> kathy: on iOS text size propogation is issue in browser.  This item is more of a user agent one.
14:41:31 <jon_avila> q?
14:41:32 <jon_avila> q+
14:41:34 <Zakim> -Alan_Smith
14:41:50 <Kathy> q-
14:42:12 <Zakim> +Alan_Smith
14:42:14 <jon_avila> Jeanne: we should identify this as a UAAG.
14:42:26 <jeanne> ack jea
14:42:26 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say that I think this is more an app feature, and we could identify it as a gap and note that it primarily applies to mobile apps
14:42:52 <jeanne> jeanne: Changed my mind and say that we should say that UAAG covers it.
14:43:40 <Zakim> -Alan_Smith
14:43:49 <Kathy> q+
14:44:09 <Zakim> +Alan_Smith
14:45:00 <jon_avila> Jon_avila:  SC 1.4.4 not accessibility supported on iOS as there is no override.
14:45:23 <jon_avila> kathy: some techniques that could be created on both sides.  Also indicate that it's UAAG.
14:45:39 <jon_avila> kathy: Call out UAAG work and then create techniques.
14:46:53 <jon_avila> jan: Zoom and text resize are different.  Should we take this to mean zoom in general?  Large text should flow from accessibility to apps.
14:47:07 <jon_avila> kathy: need techniques under 1.4.4.
14:47:32 <jon_avila> q?
14:48:30 <jon_avila> q-
14:48:55 <jon_avila> jan: link text should not be repeated.
14:49:00 <jon_avila> q?
14:49:10 <jon_avila> kathy: sounds like usability?
14:49:41 <Kathy> q-
14:50:52 <jon_avila> jon_avila: sufficient technique for that already -- not a failure.
14:51:25 <jon_avila> jan: controls objects and grouped objects must be represented as a single element.  This would be covered under information and relationship.  Also possible under name, role, value 4.1.2
14:51:41 <jon_avila> q?
14:51:43 <jon_avila> q+
14:53:20 <jon_avila> jon_avila: intent was to group stars in rating rather than each star in rating.
14:53:35 <Kathy> http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/futuremedia/accessibility/mobile/structure/duplicated-links
14:54:17 <jon_avila> jon_avila: could be cases where it would be failure although not always.
14:54:18 <kathleen> http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/futuremedia/accessibility/mobile/links/repeated-links
14:54:31 <jon_avila> kim: 5 minutes before end of all - we are about half way through.
14:54:55 <jon_avila> kim: who is not going to be around next week?  We may cancel next week's meeting.
14:55:11 <jon_avila> jan: I am around on the 25th to finish this task.
14:55:19 <jon_avila> zakim, next up
14:55:19 <Zakim> I don't understand 'next up', jon_avila
14:55:23 <jon_avila> zakim, next item
14:55:23 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, jon_avila
14:55:28 <jon_avila> zakim, up next
14:55:28 <Zakim> I don't understand 'up next', jon_avila
14:55:54 <jon_avila> q-
14:55:58 <jon_avila> zakim, next item
14:55:58 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Other guidelines" taken up [from KimPatch]
14:56:21 <jon_avila> kim: other guidelines are the IBM guidelines and Funka Nu
14:56:30 <jon_avila> Kathy: aslo have Korean guidelines
14:56:56 <jon_avila> kim: Two sets on Funka Nu. Is there anyone willing to take this on as a team?
14:57:08 <jon_avila> Allen: will take IBM guidelines by himself.
14:57:25 <jon_avila> kim: URL is in wiki resources document.
14:57:38 <jon_avila> kathy: offer to take part of Funka Nu.
14:58:01 <jon_avila> Jeanne: offer to answer questions about UAAG.
14:59:21 <jon_avila> kim: Cancel next week.  Give Allen and Kathy a chance to get started on other guidelines.  Pick up on 25th to finish BBC S&G.  Thanks to Allen for doing rest of general techniques.
14:59:43 <jon_avila> allen: May have some questions - but has put together a good overview.
15:00:17 <jon_avila> Adjacent link text: http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20140311/H2
15:00:53 <Zakim> -Alan_Smith
15:00:55 <Zakim> -Kathy_Wahlbin
15:01:05 <jeanne2> jeanne2 has joined #mobile-a11y
15:01:06 <Zakim> -kathleen
15:01:10 <Zakim> -Jan
15:01:13 <Zakim> -WuWei
15:01:14 <jon_avila> zakim, list participants
15:01:14 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Kim_Patch, Kathy_Wahlbin, Alan_Smith, +1.910.278.aaaa, kathleen, Jeanne, Jan, [IPcaller], WuWei
15:01:25 <jon_avila> rssagent, make minutes
15:01:35 <jon_avila> rrsagent, make minutes
15:01:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/11-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jon_avila
15:01:58 <jeanne2> s/rssagent, make minutes//
15:02:08 <jon_avila> rrsagent, bye
15:02:08 <RRSAgent> I see no action items