<trackbot> Date: 31 March 2014

<richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus

<dmazzoni> This is Dominic Mazzoni - I just joined

<richardschwerdtfeger> scribe: Susann_Keohane

UAIG status

richard: documents using ReSpec and put out on github

michael cooper: A SVG mapping document is products of both SVG and PFWG. SVG folks will have to join pf working group

janina: looking for formal working statement from both groups. Sign off from both groups
... time to publish. we will need formal approval from both groups like last call will need svg and pf sign off

richard: we are going to have to create semantics for graphics that will show up in svg spec at some point

matt: how many modules - svg, uaig, core user AIG, HTML5

richard: not decided how to deal with modules

modules meaning 2 sub efforts - (1) epub structural semantics (2) graphics

matt: modules are not uaig, but modules that are part of actually ARIA specs
... 6 modules - core spec, core uaig, module epub structiral semantics, graphics, spec implementations for svg and html5.1

rich: shane is working on the first reSpec

JamesC: defining what ReSpec and Github is

<clown> http://www.w3.org/respec/

<clown> Mattking^

janina: html accessibility task force charter and it shows two doc as joint doc - HTML mapping guide and using aria in html

<jcraig> JC: Git is a type of distributed version control. GitHub is a series of tools (review, merge, compare) that work on top of Git.

janina: might want to rename the doc

<jcraig> JC: ReSpec is a JavaScript-based set of transformation tools that just make it easier to do the monotonous parts of W3C spec editing.

rich: michael to chair the next two ARIA calls

ARIA 1.1 Meaty issues

DM: web components - elements inside shadow is not accessible from the containing document
... idea is to encapsulate them but there are new tools to jump inside components
... challenge is what is if you need to refernce something inside from outside like aria labelled by

<Stefan> +q

DM: two options

<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to discuss the activedescendant example

james: active descendant - one case where this would be applicable is combobox
... list box that pops up will be a shadow dom control
... ask DM for other examples

DM: one case provided may not be necessary for this proposal

s/DM for james

DM: activedescendant there might be an alt case for a combo box. listbox where every option in the list box is it's own

matt: would a grid be a use case

DM: yes it's certainly possible

stefan: how does AT access the part. Is there already some ref exist? what can we expect

DM: web componenet spec doesn't specifically ref a11y, but it makes it clear how web component behave. Take all the contents to the html add it to the dom where the custom element is found. that is what is presented to ATs
... basic things work as if you added the html right there

stefan: you can hide the code implementation but the screen readers can access it

DM: issues with focusability
... this idea of defining alt way to define id ref and could be a good feature outside of web components

<jcraig> Agreed that this feature is not limited to shadow DOM usage

Rich: question - the aria labelled by is inside component but wants to be labelled outside
... question expands into the dom
... what if you have an a11y that is traversing the dom itself

DM: there are javascript api that let you traverse inside a component
... a11y dev tools ext for chrome supports web components and find a11y issues inside components

rich: which browsers besides chrome

DM: mozilla has provided support to the group, they are all at different stages at different browsers

matt: what is the status - what is the context?

<clown> http://w3c.github.io/webcomponents/explainer/ ?

DM: web components could be considered a mini iframe

<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to suggest we talk about this outside the context of shadow DOM. We

DM: shoudl take the discussion outside of web components to progress conversation

matt: shadow dom, it is very diff than iframe that is not a seperate doc

<clown> shadow dom: http://w3c.github.io/webcomponents/spec/shadow/index.html

DM: it has its own render tree that is how it is seperate
... it does have its own scripts and style sheets

matt: a11y req around landmark and regions. If there is a main landmark inside a web component will there be a problem

<?> everything should work as everything was composed into one page

susann: not sure who is speaking right now

<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to suggest we talk about this outside the context of shadow DOM.

james: if you were to create a dialog and wanted to label it, you would have to give it a heading and ref it
... I am labelled by the first heading inside of me

james; i control the first element inside me matching this classname

james: locked into id ref so it's not possible today
... it would be easier to ref a particular element inside a control
... shadow dom is an ex that can't be done currently
... but it is useful outside the shadow dom

brian: asked a question about ref in mark up

james: open up token parsing and attribute parsing rules to simple selectors
... javascript based use a ccs selector and pass in ref to a dom element at page render time
... any and all selectors or whats avail in javascript

ich: query selector, it could be problematic

rich: you could have a mix that has to be parsed
... the mix of id and javascript

james: he put in a decent soln to that problem

rich: the idea of a selector is really nice and save code

<jcraig> Dominic proposed on list: aria-foo="myIdRef selector(mySelector) mySecondIdRef"

james: this is what dominic posted on list
... unique syntax as open parm
... worried about complex selectors
... two elements or two class, do we allow

matt: any other specs that use ids in this way or is aria the first

james: html and svg do use it in several places

DM: label for = and table cell can spec headers by id ref
... svg is another classic example

matt: is there any other spec that allows id to be selectors
... we're breaking new ground

rich: i like the selector indicator and run eval on it

DM: query selector and pass it that string to pass it that element

james: label all would be necessary
... query selector all picks all

matt: every that has a certain class would make sense

DM: if aria attribute allows for multiple, select all
... rare if multiple elelments map and only won't the first one

<jcraig> aria-foo="selector([role=heading])"

DM: aria labelled by that takes multiple ids then call all

matt: the author would have to responsible to make sure you have a unique match

<jcraig> aria-foo="selector(>[role=heading])" (only the first heading?)

DM: I could go either way. we don't have to specify every permutation

matt: if there is anything implicited like it's all there is agreat possible of confusion

rich: 4 heading would give you list of headings

DM: dont need to solve the issue today on query select

rich: logicistic issue who is going to discuss web components group

james: no need to discuss with web components
... need to discuss in web app and css
... need a soln before we discuss to each group

rich: who is the person that will go discuss. James could go to web apps

james: is fine with that and is a member of css
... want to work out all the kinks. Don't see a prob with javascript api
... there is oddities with putting selectors inside attributes bc there is not precedence

DM: agreed there is alot of details to work out
... query selector can defer computation until AT request it

<jcraig> deferred computation is a good reason for the query approach

DM: potential performance win
... once when requested inside updated continuously

s/ inside with instead

james: how would you get a reference to self

<jcraig> attr="selector(>[role=heading])"

james: child selector
... first child heading instead of first heading

DM: document query selector

james: can happen in nested web components
... even if you added an id to get to self, you will have to ref shadow root with other selector and if multiple things match how would you tell

DM: may need to add syntax for self. Need to think about it some more

rich: what are the issues that we need to discuss? (1) attribute selector (2) nesting of web component (3) concerned about query selector resolve to multiple name
... other items?

DM: strong feelings about html only route vs javascript only route

<richardschwerdtfeger> q/

DM: does anyone have strong objections to one or other

james: no strong objections but working out kinks
... this is a shift from typical declarative aria approach
... there is not other language that use selectors

DM: may won't to choose one to go with first

james: reflective attributes for the rest of stuff

rich: the only thing I worry about is the test tool and how they get at information
... they are use to walking the dom

DM: we would have a javascript interface to inspect

rich: how hard to get features into browsers
... getting javascript features into browser is always a challenge
... understand it will be hard to coordinate

DM: that is why he is open to both ideas. reach out to mozilla as soon as possible

james: alex and david are both on the list

rich: we would have to get this in svg also
... if we are going to use the api route

james: element interface instead of html interface and should inherit to svg

rich: specific methods to say get role

james: we have specific aria to use in any language, generic mark up language
... language has a possible to modify how aria efects it

rich: if you look at the dom form spec, don't have a get role

james: we will put in aria 1.1 our porposed ext to element
... keep it into aria spec

rich: start earlier rather than later
... dont need it to be in dom spec?

james: as long as we extend it in a std way we can keep it in aria spec
... search html doc for "partial interface Element" and you will see it

rich: what do we do about css attribute selector that are not in dom

james: one of proposal is the role selector, computed role selector

<jcraig> CSS computed role selector :role() selector

james: proposed this last year. render h1, h2 and any element that was equivalent to able

s/ able / "above"

<jcraig> h1, h2, *[role="heading"] would be equivalent to *:role(heading)

rich: checkbox?

james: you can use attrib selector for it

<jcraig> reflected attrs would be something like this: el.ariaChecked = "true"; results in <el aria-checked="true">

james: I think IE may have had reflected attib in its first implementation
... beneficial qualities to it

rich: lets make sure we get this covered
... is trying to reduce the amt of javascript
... trying to get fast and smaller

<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to ask why you are trying to reduce JS usage

rich: adding aria attributes after teh fact and adds performance issues. structures we use for aria we find in uI across the board
... we can style the UI using those attrib rather then make modifications to the dom
... trying to reduce footprint and make it faster

james: clarify - you had to change the aria properties and classname on element

rich: the viz would change that you set something in the dom
... alot of component lib don't make use of css capability because of running in old broswer
... css scrollable div didn't exist in IE 6
... we are seeing performance gains
... add a11y features in begin and use it to drive style reduces the amount of aria code

james: ReSpec makes it easier to add new IDL interfaces

Topic issue 590

<jcraig> issue-590?

<trackbot> issue-590 -- add caption role -- raised

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/590

rich: it can be closed

<richardschwerdtfeger> Issue 590 Caption Role: Per our last discussion this should be closed in

<richardschwerdtfeger> favor of aria-labelledby

<richardschwerdtfeger> - https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/590

<clown> issue-590?

<trackbot> issue-590 -- add caption role -- raised

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/590

DM: used for tables and figures
... we dont have 1-1 mapping
... we got rid of label in aria 1.0 bc we had labelledby
... bc we now have this planned interface for computed role, move towards having a 1-1 mapping with any of the semantic html components
... may need a generic for the ones we don't have 1-1 mapping
... not to close issue but reinstating the label role?

rich: any objecting to introducing the label role?

matt: don't understand what the role=label buys you

DM: benefit is to inspect the dom the javascript interface
... computing role should return heading in examples provided
... caption has not element role mapping

matt: so what is the advantage?

rich: overtime
... take it to the list

<clown> IA2_ROLE_PARAGRAPH

rich: response to action item 1398

<jcraig> action-1398?

<trackbot> action-1398 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Email list with discussion points for localized custom role names on known role types: role inheritance hierarchy, roadmap towards custom roles outlined, localization implications, potential for subroles etc. -- due 2014-03-24 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1398

rich: take a look at it and discuss over next week

rrs agent, make minutes

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.138  of Date: 2013-04-25 13:59:11  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/documents are produce of both/A SVG mapping document is products of both SVG and PFWG/
Succeeded: s/george: /janina: /g
Succeeded: s/<?>/JamesC:/
Succeeded: s/george:/janina:/g
Succeeded: s/accesibility inside from outside/accessible from the containing document/
WARNING: Bad s/// command: s/DM for james
Succeeded: s/precedents/precedence/
WARNING: Bad s/// command: s/ inside with instead
Succeeded: s/partial interface element/"partial interface Element"/
FAILED: s/ able / "above"/
Succeeded: s/IE had reflected /I think IE may have had reflected /
Succeeded: s/reSpec makes it easier to add new interfeaces/ReSpec makes it easier to add new IDL interfaces/
Found Scribe: Susann_Keohane
Inferring ScribeNick: Susann_Keohane
Default Present: Rich_Schwerdtfeger, +1.415.624.aaaa, +1.512.445.aabb, Bryan_Garaventa, janina, Michael_Cooper, Suzanne_Keohane, Suzann_Keohane
Present: Rich_Schwerdtfeger +1.415.624.aaaa +1.512.445.aabb Bryan_Garaventa janina Michael_Cooper Suzanne_Keohane Suzann_Keohane
Found Date: 31 Mar 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/03/31-aria-minutes.html
People with action items: 

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.