See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 18 February 2014
<clown> agenda: this
<joanie> scribenick: joanie
<clown> action-1383?
<trackbot> action-1383 -- James Craig to Add role none to spec -- due 2014-02-17 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1383
JS: Wants to touch base. If aria-role="none", opinion on what we should do vis-a-vis UAIG?
DB: I would just add it to the UAIG
<clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/#exclude_elements2
JS: Points out above as one mention
DB: There's a bugzilla bug for Firefox
<davidb> joanie, the bugzilla comment is here https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=971212#c1
<davidb> from Bryan "In sharing the new role proposal with some devs, many incorrectly associated role=none with display:none because they share the same value."
JS: Rolemapping table probably says something about it
<clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/#mapping_role_table
JS: Reads text. It's going to link to the exclusion section.
<clown> If the object is in the accessibility tree, expose as ROLE_SYSTEM_PANE
JS: There is (the above) under IA2
<clown> If the object is in the accessibility tree, expose as ROLE_PANEL
JS: And under ATK the above
... It's exposed as a panel
... If it has role="presentation" and is included in the
tree
... I would assume, mapping for none is the same
DB: yeah
... As a side note, if it is included in the tree refers to
there being other markup requiring it to be in the tree
JS: If it's a button, in a
presentation role, why would it have role panel?
... I would have thought if something is interactive, ignore
the role
DB: Is that a real example?
JS: I don't know
... Currently the mapping table says in that case (his reading
of the mapping table), expose it as a panel
DB: It might be that they want to use a button element to do something not button-like
JS: That's author error (quite likely)
DB: Sounds like there is more discussion to be had
JS: I think if aria-role="none" goes in, change to UIAG would be to mention/add it to the docs for presentation
DB: agrees
... If this is if it is accepted
JS: Would not like two presentation roles
<davidb> (and deprecate presentation)
JS: If the purpose to switch to none is get rid of the confusion / it's just a name change
<clown> action-1369?
<trackbot> action-1369 -- David Bolter to Investigate implementation of aria-live region events in FF -- due 2014-02-11 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1369
DB: For this one, I didn't do my homework. But not sure he understands it.
<clown> issue-481?
<trackbot> issue-481 -- aria-live removal events should or must happen before object removal -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/481
JS: It relates back to the above
issue
... It says....
JS quotes the description
JS: He does say you must notify
first before removing it
... If you notify it after, it goes to grab what was removed
and by then it's gone
DB: We've done some work on
this
... As a meta-comment, why aren't these linked?
JS: Points out they are linked
DB: I have more homework to do
here.
... I have the feeling this might be a "should" for now.
JS: He *thinks* Cynthia was going to look into it first to see what IE does.
<clown> scribnick: clown
<clown> JD: <reinforces what Joseph said: impossible to present material that is already gone.>
<clown> scribenick: clown
JD: Dead accessibles are difficult to deal with.
DB: I thought we did a whole
bunch of work to deal with live regions, and removal of
text.
... We had a text cache, outisde of content and layout.
... Even had a "diff" algorithm to do this.
... I think we are close. I just have to dig.
... The UAIG section speaks about the deletion of a DOM
node.
... This might be about ATs that look at the DOM.
<joanie> scribenick: joanie
JS: Do we want to change due
date?
... Was due a week ago.
DB: I can make it next week.
<davidb> famous last words
<clown> action-1370?
<trackbot> action-1370 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Add text back into uaig regarding computing implicit level information when a tree is built out of aria-owns relationships. -- due 2014-02-11 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1370
<davidb> this is possibly https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=499917
JS: This is about aria-owns on a flat DOM, but it makes a tree. And the test case doesn't pass.
DB: Whether we have the spec from
the UAIG, this is going to be a "known issue" in Gecko for a
little while
... due to priorities.
JS: From Monday call, this was a
1.1
... Michael said, this is what the spec says
... Rich and James pointed out it was a special case and likely
would not be seen in the wild.
<davidb> it smells bad
JS: We decided there was not
enough time to get all the browser people together, so let's
just punt it for now
... I added the URL in a note.
... Do we want to change the date?
DB: What do we want to do for it?
JS: The action is on me. I
removed the MUST statement from the UAIG. But the proviso was
to put it back in 1.1.
... I've been wanting to create a 1.1 draft.
... But Michael said Richard wants to split it in pieces
... Core, HTML, SVG are the three pieces.
... Core tells you 80%+ of what you need to know.
... Then there are a few things in HTML and SVG that override
core.
... Example, making title attribute the tooltip text.
... That wouldn't appear in the core, but in the HTML
piece.
... I want to "tag and branch" to start on "trunk" (1.1)
<davidb> do it
JS: pass on that because she's not here.
JS: Ditto.
JS: Ditto.
<clown> issue-644?
<trackbot> issue-644 -- Update ATK/AT-SPI mapping for aria-hidden="true" to reflect elements should not be exposed/mapped -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/644
<davidb> one of the bugzilla bugs is https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=972845
<clown> scribenick: clown
JS: the point is the reality is it's in the the spec and authors are doing it (using aria-hidden to remove accessibles).
JD: It can be done in the
browser, or it can be done by orca.
... It's more efficient for the browser to do it.
... I want FF to do it (the more efficient of the two
ways).
... And, I want the table in the UAIG to be updated as well to
say, "do not expose".
DB: I want to talk to Alex again
on this issue.
... He's easier than he was.
s/JS: the point is/JD: the point is/
DB: there are some implementation
concerns that Alex brought up.
... I think I can answer them.
JD: if you look at the AG, it
makes it clear, that you have to be careful if you use
aria-hiddne.
... What's in the UAIG is much more neutral.
... I would like to see the cavets given in the Mac
mapping.
... I think that language is closer match to whats in the
APG.
... I don't think the AT should have to look at a child and
then check the parent chain to find if a parent is hidden.
JS: aria-hidden is supposed to
inherit from its parent, so the browser could propogate it to
the children.
... So the AT does not need to look up the parent chain.
s/JS: the point is the reality/JD: the point is the reality/
s/JS: the point is the reality/JD: the point is the reality/
<joanie> scribenick: joanie
JS: This is a review of all the remaining issues. :)
Group: Let's move on.
RRSAgent regrets Cynthia
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.138 of Date: 2013-04-25 13:59:11 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) FAILED: s/JS: the point is/JD: the point is/ Succeeded: s/DB: I could check to see if that parent-chain computation is done or not.// FAILED: s/JS: the point is the reality/JD: the point is the reality/ FAILED: s/JS: the point is the reality/JD: the point is the reality/ Found ScribeNick: joanie Found ScribeNick: clown Found ScribeNick: joanie Found ScribeNick: clown Found ScribeNick: joanie Inferring Scribes: joanie, clown Scribes: joanie, clown ScribeNicks: joanie, clown Default Present: Joseph_Scheuhammer, David_Bolter, Bryan_Geraventa, Joanmarie_Diggs Present: Joseph_Scheuhammer David_Bolter Bryan_Geraventa Joanmarie_Diggs Regrets: Cynthia_Shelly Found Date: 18 Feb 2014 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/02/18-aapi-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]