19:47:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
19:47:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/18-aapi-irc
19:47:47 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
19:47:47 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
19:47:49 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
19:47:49 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
19:47:50 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
19:47:50 <trackbot> Date: 18 February 2014
19:48:29 <clown> chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:48:43 <clown> agenda: this
19:48:51 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1383: (All) Implications for UAIG re: role 'none'.
19:49:04 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-481/ACTION-1368/ACTION-1369: (David, Cynthia) aria-live  removal events should/must happen before object removal.
19:49:15 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-612/ACTION-1370: (David) Add text back for implicit  aria-level computation via aria-owns hierarchy.
19:49:25 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-441/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Test case for incomplete use of aria-posinset/aria-setsize.
19:49:37 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-618/ACTION-1371: (Cynthia) Investigate how IE implements item de-selection in single selection container.
19:49:45 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-635/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Create test case for rowgroup role.
19:49:58 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-644: (All) Update ATK/AT-SPI mapping for aria-hidden="true" to reflect elements should not be exposed/mapped.
19:50:34 <clown> agenda+ 1.1 ISSUES and ACTIONS: (All)  Start with ISSUE-540, https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
19:50:44 <clown> agenda+ be done.
19:51:16 <clown> zakim, agenda?
19:51:16 <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
19:51:17 <Zakim> 1. ACTION-1383: (All) Implications for UAIG re: role 'none'. [from clown]
19:51:17 <Zakim> 2. ISSUE-481/ACTION-1368/ACTION-1369: (David, Cynthia) aria-live  removal events should/must happen before object removal. [from clown]
19:51:17 <Zakim> 3. ISSUE-612/ACTION-1370: (David) Add text back for implicit  aria-level computation via aria-owns hierarchy. [from clown]
19:51:17 <Zakim> 4. ISSUE-441/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Test case for incomplete use of aria-posinset/aria-setsize. [from clown]
19:51:19 <Zakim> 5. ISSUE-618/ACTION-1371: (Cynthia) Investigate how IE implements item de-selection in single selection container. [from clown]
19:51:19 <Zakim> 6. ISSUE-635/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Create test case for rowgroup role. [from clown]
19:51:19 <Zakim> 7. ISSUE-644: (All) Update ATK/AT-SPI mapping for aria-hidden="true" to reflect elements should not be exposed/mapped. [from clown]
19:51:19 <Zakim> 8. 1.1 ISSUES and ACTIONS: (All)  Start with ISSUE-540, https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23 [from clown]
19:51:23 <Zakim> 9. be done. [from clown]
20:03:33 <joanie> Zakim, scribenick joanie
20:03:33 <Zakim> I don't understand 'scribenick joanie', joanie
20:03:38 <joanie> Zakim, scribenick: joanie
20:03:38 <Zakim> I don't understand 'scribenick: joanie', joanie
20:03:46 <joanie> scribenick: joanie
20:04:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/18-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:04:37 <joanie> Zakim, take up agenda
20:04:37 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up agenda', joanie
20:04:45 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
20:04:46 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ACTION-1383: (All) Implications for UAIG re: role 'none'." taken up [from clown]
20:04:55 <clown> action-1383?
20:04:55 <trackbot> action-1383 -- James Craig to Add role none to spec -- due 2014-02-17 -- OPEN
20:04:55 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1383
20:05:37 <joanie> JS: Wants to touch base. If aria-role="none", opinion on what we should do vis-a-vis UAIG?
20:05:48 <joanie> DB: I would just add it to the UAIG
20:05:50 <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/#exclude_elements2
20:06:02 <joanie> JS: Points out above as one mention
20:06:17 <joanie> DB: There's a bugzilla bug for Firefox
20:06:44 <davidb> joanie, the bugzilla comment is here https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=971212#c1
20:07:00 <davidb> from Bryan "In sharing the new role proposal with some devs, many incorrectly associated role=none with display:none because they share the same value."
20:07:13 <joanie> JS: Rolemapping table probably says something about it
20:07:13 <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/#mapping_role_table
20:07:18 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
20:07:37 <joanie> JS: Reads text. It's going to link to the exclusion section.
20:07:40 <clown> If the object is in the accessibility tree, expose as ROLE_SYSTEM_PANE
20:07:45 <joanie> JS: There is (the above) under IA2
20:07:47 <clown> If the object is in the accessibility tree, expose as ROLE_PANEL
20:07:55 <joanie> JS: And under ATK the above
20:08:06 <joanie> JS: It's exposed as a panel
20:08:18 <joanie> JS: If it has role="presentation" and is included in the tree
20:08:31 <joanie> JS: I would assume, mapping for none is the same
20:08:36 <joanie> DB: yeah
20:08:59 <joanie> DB: As a side note, if it is included in the tree refers to there being other markup requiring it to be in the tree
20:09:18 <joanie> JS: If it's a button, in a presentation role, why would it have role panel?
20:09:35 <joanie> JS: I would have thought if something is interactive, ignore the role
20:09:40 <joanie> DB: Is that a real example?
20:09:44 <joanie> JS: I don't know
20:10:01 <joanie> JS: Currently the mapping table says in that case (his reading of the mapping table), expose it as a panel
20:10:26 <joanie> DB: It might be that they want to use a button element to do something not button-like
20:10:44 <joanie> JS: That's author error (quite likely)
20:10:59 <joanie> DB: Sounds like there is more discussion to be had
20:11:37 <joanie> JS: I think if aria-role="none" goes in, change to UIAG would be to mention/add it to the docs for presentation
20:11:41 <joanie> DB: agrees
20:11:52 <joanie> DB: If this is if it is accepted
20:12:00 <joanie> JS: Would not like two presentation roles
20:12:03 <davidb> (and deprecate presentation)
20:12:18 <joanie> JS: If the purpose to switch to none is get rid of the confusion / it's just a name change
20:12:34 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 2
20:12:34 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ISSUE-481/ACTION-1368/ACTION-1369: (David, Cynthia) aria-live  removal events should/must happen before object removal." taken up [from clown]
20:12:44 <clown> action-1369?
20:12:44 <trackbot> action-1369 -- David Bolter to Investigate implementation of aria-live region events in FF -- due 2014-02-11 -- OPEN
20:12:44 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1369
20:13:02 <joanie> DB: For this one, I didn't do my homework. But not sure he understands it.
20:13:04 <clown> issue-481?
20:13:04 <trackbot> issue-481 -- aria-live removal events should or must happen before object removal -- open
20:13:04 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/481
20:13:08 <joanie> JS: It relates back to the above issue
20:13:29 <joanie> JS: It says....
20:13:38 <joanie> JS quotes the description
20:14:39 <joanie> JS: He does say you must notify first before removing it
20:14:56 <joanie> JS: If you notify it after, it goes to grab what was removed and by then it's gone
20:15:02 <joanie> DB: We've done some work on this
20:15:19 <joanie> DB: As a meta-comment, why aren't these linked?
20:15:27 <joanie> JS: Points out they are linked
20:15:36 <joanie> DB: I have more homework to do here.
20:15:55 <joanie> DB: I have the feeling this might be a "should" for now.
20:16:14 <joanie> JS: He *thinks* Cynthia was going to look into it first to see what IE does.
20:16:41 <clown> scribnick: clown
20:17:27 <clown> JD:  <reinforces what Joseph said:  impossible to present material that is already gone.>
20:17:57 <clown> scribenick:  clown
20:18:09 <clown> JD: Dead accessibles are difficult to deal with.
20:18:35 <clown> DB:  I thought we did a whole bunch of work to deal with live regions, and removal of text.
20:18:50 <clown> DB:  We had a text cache, outisde of content and layout.
20:19:06 <clown> DB:  Even had a "diff" algorithm to do this.
20:19:14 <clown> DB:  I think we are close.  I just have to dig.
20:19:37 <clown> DB:  The UAIG section speaks about the deletion of a DOM node.
20:19:56 <clown> DB:  This might be about ATs that look at the DOM.
20:20:02 <joanie> scribenick: joanie
20:20:23 <joanie> JS: Do we want to change due date?
20:20:28 <joanie> JS: Was due a week ago.
20:20:44 <joanie> DB: I can make it next week.
20:21:07 <davidb> famous last words
20:21:29 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 3
20:21:29 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ISSUE-612/ACTION-1370: (David) Add text back for implicit  aria-level computation via aria-owns hierarchy." taken up [from clown]
20:21:39 <clown> action-1370?
20:21:39 <trackbot> action-1370 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Add text back into uaig regarding computing implicit level information when a tree is built out of aria-owns relationships. -- due 2014-02-11 -- OPEN
20:21:39 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1370
20:22:08 <davidb> this is possibly https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=499917
20:22:15 <joanie> JS: This is about aria-owns on a flat DOM, but it makes a tree. And the test case doesn't pass.
20:22:56 <joanie> DB: Whether we have the spec from the UAIG, this is going to be a "known issue" in Gecko for a little while
20:23:01 <joanie> DB: due to priorities.
20:23:14 <joanie> JS: From Monday call, this was a 1.1
20:23:22 <joanie> JS: Michael said, this is what the spec says
20:23:36 <joanie> JS: Rich and James pointed out it was a special case and likely would not be seen in the wild.
20:23:46 <davidb> it smells bad
20:23:56 <joanie> JS: We decided there was not enough time to get all the browser people together, so let's just punt it for now
20:24:25 <joanie> JS: I added the URL in a note.
20:24:30 <joanie> JS: Do we want to change the date?
20:24:36 <joanie> DB: What do we want to do for it?
20:25:08 <joanie> JS: The action is on me. I removed the MUST statement from the UAIG. But the proviso was to put it back in 1.1.
20:25:25 <joanie> JS: I've been wanting to create a 1.1 draft.
20:25:38 <joanie> JS: But Michael said Richard wants to split it in pieces
20:26:06 <joanie> JS: Core, HTML, SVG are the three pieces.
20:26:14 <joanie> JS: Core tells you 80%+ of what you need to know.
20:26:27 <joanie> JS: Then there are a few things in HTML and SVG that override core.
20:26:39 <joanie> JS: Example, making title attribute the tooltip text.
20:26:55 <joanie> JS: That wouldn't appear in the core, but in the HTML piece.
20:27:13 <joanie> JS: I want to "tag and branch" to start on "trunk" (1.1)
20:29:08 <davidb> do it
20:29:36 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 4
20:29:36 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ISSUE-441/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Test case for incomplete use of aria-posinset/aria-setsize." taken up [from clown]
20:29:47 <joanie> JS: pass on that because she's not here.
20:29:49 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 5
20:29:49 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ISSUE-618/ACTION-1371: (Cynthia) Investigate how IE implements item de-selection in single selection container." taken up [from clown]
20:30:02 <joanie> JS: Ditto.
20:30:06 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 6
20:30:06 <Zakim> agendum 6. "ISSUE-635/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Create test case for rowgroup role." taken up [from clown]
20:30:09 <joanie> JS: Ditto.
20:30:12 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 7
20:30:12 <Zakim> agendum 7. "ISSUE-644: (All) Update ATK/AT-SPI mapping for aria-hidden="true" to reflect elements should not be exposed/mapped." taken up [from clown]
20:30:27 <clown> issue-644?
20:30:27 <trackbot> issue-644 -- Update ATK/AT-SPI mapping for aria-hidden="true" to reflect elements should not be exposed/mapped -- open
20:30:27 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/644
20:30:50 <davidb> one of the bugzilla bugs is https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=972845
20:30:52 <clown> scribenick: clown
20:31:46 <clown> JS:  the point  is the reality is it's in the the spec and authors are doing it (using aria-hidden to remove accessibles).
20:32:13 <clown> JD:  It can be done in the browser, or it can be done by orca.
20:32:25 <clown> JD:  It's more efficient for the browser to do it.
20:32:41 <clown> JD:  I want FF to do it (the more efficient of the two ways).
20:33:01 <clown> JD:  And, I want the table in the UAIG to be updated as well to say, "do not expose".
20:33:17 <clown> DB:  I want to talk to Alex again on this issue.
20:33:33 <clown> DB:  He's easier than he was.
20:33:54 <clown> s/JS:  the point is/JD: the point is/
20:34:22 <clown> DB:  there are some implementation concerns that Alex brought up.
20:34:30 <clown> DB:  I think I can answer them.
20:38:12 <clown> JD: if you look at the AG, it makes it clear, that you have to be careful if you use aria-hiddne.
20:38:29 <clown> JD:  What's in the UAIG is much more neutral.
20:38:50 <clown> JD:  I would like to see the cavets given in the Mac mapping.
20:39:12 <clown> JD:  I think that language is closer match to whats in the APG.
20:41:18 <clown> JD: I don't think the AT should have to look at a child and then check the parent chain to find if a parent is hidden.
20:42:09 <clown> JS:  aria-hidden is supposed to inherit from its parent, so the browser could propogate it to the children.
20:42:21 <clown> JS: So the AT does not need to look up the parent chain.
20:43:48 <clown> DB:  I could check to see if that parent-chain computation is done or not.
20:44:33 <clown> s/DB:  I could check to see if that parent-chain computation is done or not.//
20:44:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/18-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:45:41 <clown> s/JS: the point is the reality/JD: the point is the reality/
20:45:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/18-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:46:32 <clown> s/JS:  the point  is the reality/JD:  the point  is the reality/
20:46:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/18-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:48:23 <joanie> scribenick: joanie
20:48:28 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 8
20:48:28 <Zakim> agendum 8. "1.1 ISSUES and ACTIONS: (All)  Start with ISSUE-540, https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23" taken up [from clown]
20:48:51 <joanie> JS: This is a review of all the remaining issues. :)
20:49:02 <joanie> Group: Let's move on.
20:49:06 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 9
20:49:06 <Zakim> agendum 9. "be done." taken up [from clown]
20:49:58 <Zakim> -David_Bolter
20:50:37 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop
20:51:30 <joanie> Zakim, part
20:51:30 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Joseph_Scheuhammer, David_Bolter, Bryan_Geraventa, Joanmarie_Diggs
20:51:30 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
20:51:49 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop
20:52:15 <joanie> RRSAgent regrets Cynthia
20:52:20 <joanie> RRSAgent, regrets Cynthia
20:52:20 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'regrets Cynthia', joanie.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
20:52:30 <clown> regrets:  Cynthia_Shelly
20:52:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/18-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:53:45 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop