Tweak agenda

AB: I posted a draft agenda yesterday http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0057.html. Any change requests?
... Patrick, welcome to the group and thanks for your introduction (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0034.html). FYI, I generally am the scribe of these calls and we expect participants to "embellish and correct" the minutes directly in IRC.

<patrick_h_lauke> Zaki, +44.797.663.aaaa is me

<patrick_h_lauke> oops

Pointer Events types and keyboard/keyboard-like interfaces?

AB: Patrick started this thread on January 4 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0002.html.
... there was some discussion by Rick, Patrick and Bruce but I don't think there was a resolution or consensus position per se but I could have missed it.

PL: need to do some testing with polyfills before making a decsion

… my bg is with WAI

… Opera has done some related work

… Discussion ended with we should polyfill and do some testing

RB: Jacob and I are both conerned about adding too much to the low level primitives

… having said that, if we can show there is a good need we can discuss this again

SM: with spatial nav, some elements like href have different behaviour

… e.g. for mouse click

… testing is all against mouse handling

… spatial navigation generates fake mouse events

… I'm investigating doing same thing for pointerevents

… but we need to learn more

… not sure if we need to do something in the spec yet or not

SG: when it does fail, what events were devs listening to?

SM: mousedown and mouseup

… which is normal behaviour for browser

SG: not sure want to contort spec if people are doing wrong thing

JR: we have done some similar investigation

… our primary goal is mouse compat

<sangwhan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013OctDec/0018.html

SG: if have a cursor, want pointer events

… thus new devices can use PEs and just work

… fine to have a controller that can point and type and to have different events

PL: what about sequential tabbing thru pages

… don't want devs to have to lie about their input devices

[ Scott discusses tool tip scenario … ]

RB: can understand an api that is agnostic for keyboard, tab, mouse, touch, etc.

<patrick_h_lauke> fundamental (historic) difference between "focus" and "hover" - if i click with a mouse on a focusable element, i shift focus to it as well, and focus remains there even when "hover" isn't happening anymore

<patrick_h_lauke> maybe not the right place to fix THIS scenario here (but we've bumped against that in other accessibility discussions already)

RB: don't want to have to "lie" to get compat

… if a huge set of sites are broken, then lies can be justfied

<patrick_h_lauke> RB: making up screen coordinates (as suggested by PL "take center point of focused element) is a "lie"

… think we need to know which higher level APIs are missing

SG: hover and focus are different things

<patrick_h_lauke> SG: developers should be using focus, blur, click which is agnostic

<patrick_h_lauke> that was matt methinks

MB: the implementation of hover creates a problem

… we have a section about mouse events

… can we do backwards compat in a predictable way

… without creating other issues

SG: but some sites are already broken with keyboards

JR: keyboard interaction model is a lot different than the new devices

<patrick_h_lauke> question for/from me is: with pointer events we have a clean slate, but will developers fall back to the same (wrong) practices and ignore keyboard

JR: keyboards don't hover, not pixel based

… when I look at what people are building with PE, not clear how keyboard would fit in

… don't think we should add anything to the spec until we have more data

RB: yes, agree; need more experience

AB: seems like we don't quite have enough experience and data to agree to a change to the spec

SM: if we don't generate any compat events, think we are going to have problem

<scribe> ACTION: sangwhan make a proposal re the keyboard compat issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-63 - Make a proposal re the keyboard compat issue [on Sangwhan Moon - due 2014-02-04].

PL: don't want devs to fall back on old practices

… perhaps an advisory note

… should be added to the spec

RB: I like that idea

… non-normative note makes sense

<jrossi> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEvents.html#compatibility-mapping-with-mouse-events

<scribe> ACTION: patrick propose a non-normative note re the keyboard compat issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-64 - Propose a non-normative note re the keyboard compat issue [on Patrick Lauke - due 2014-02-04].

JR: we already have something like that and we can add some more text

<patrick_h_lauke> JR: add to the note importance about a11y

<patrick_h_lauke> RB: also add focus/blur advice

Touch-action to SVG elements

AB: this thread was started by Gnanasekar S, January 13 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/att-0016/00-part.
... Rick sent two replies: first http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0018.html and second is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0024.html.

RB: he works for Samsung in India

… he has been landing some patches in Blink

… I encouraged him to send this message

AB: What's the group's position on this? Do we do nothing, is a minor clarification/tweak to the PE spec needed, or something else?

RB: my reading of the spec is that touch-action doesn't apply to SVG elements

JR: perhaps the problem is the text wasn't meant to be plural

RB: perhaps we just need a clarification then

JR: use "The" SVG element
... would be good if Doug were here

AB: good point

<scribe> ACTION: jacob create a proposal to address the SVG element issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-65 - Create a proposal to address the svg element issue [on Jacob Rossi - due 2014-02-04].

<patrick_h_lauke> sorry folks, have to shoot off

RB: also need to make sure the use of "block" is correct

<patrick_h_lauke> feel free to assign anything more to me later from "my" topics

JR: we can certainly reach out to the SVG WG

RB: yeah, good idea

… let's make sure we get them to help us get the text correct

Bug 24346; Clarifications on Pointer Events Types section;

AB: this bug was filed by Patrick on January 21. https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24346 as a followup to the "`List of Pointer Events` table default actions" thread between Patrick and Rick on January 17 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0025.html
... do we want to discuss this now?

RB: I think Jacob replied

JR: I think Patrick proposed text but I have made the change

RB: I made some minor tweaks too

<scribe> ACTION: Jacob address Bug 24346 per the agreement during the 28-Jan-2014 call [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-66 - Address bug 24346 per the agreement during the 28-jan-2014 call [on Jacob Rossi - due 2014-02-04].

Bug 24348; pointerdown/pointerup/pointercancel on non-hover devices;

AB: Patrick filed this bug on 21-Jan-2014 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24348.
... Jacob fixed the bug in in latest ED https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/default/pointerEvents.html via two changsets (URLs are in the bug).
... is there anything we need to discuss or is the latest ED with Jacob's two changes OK?

RB: I agree Jacob's patches are good

AB: any objections?

[ None ]

RESOLUTION: Jacob's patches for bug 24348 are OK

Clarification on "cancelling" pointerdown

AB: Patrick started this thread on January 22 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0041.html. Matt replied http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0048.html.
... do we need a minor clarification or is there something more?

RB: I agree with Matt's comment

JR: yes, need a DOM4 reference

<scribe> ACTION: Jacob create a bug for the "Clarification on 'cancelling' pointerdown" issue and address it per the discussion on 28-Jan-2014 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-67 - Create a bug for the "clarification on 'cancelling' pointerdown" issue and address it per the discussion on 28-jan-2014 [on Jacob Rossi - due 2014-02-04].

initial thoughts: pointerup and "click"/"contextmenu";

AB: Patrick started this thread on January 22 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0042.html. Jacob replied on January 24 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0055.html.

SM: I'm looking at bug on Opera mobile with touch events

… there is a scenario where touch cancel causes some compat issues

… think we are going to have the same problem with pointerevents

JR: re ordering, I replied to Patrick with my thoughts

… different solutions have been implememted

SM: context menu can obstruct the pointer

… and in that case, it should be canceled

JR: if press and hold on Safari, menu appears below finger

… can expect cancel happening

… in IE we do things differently

… get up first and then context menu

JR: does IE supress context menu if a move is in place
... the event should always fire

RB: I agree with Jacob that this is outside the scope of this group

… not clear that all browsers would want to agree on a behavior

SM: that's fine

RB: it wouldn't hurt to add a non-normative note about this

… and mention UAs will vary here

AB: would that be ok Jacob?

JR: yes, that would be fine

RB: I can propose a sentence

SM: think we can add a note in the compat section

… just need a sentence

<scribe> ACTION: rick make a proposal to address the context menu issue per discussion on 28-Jan-2014 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-68 - Make a proposal to address the context menu issue per discussion on 28-jan-2014 [on Rick Byers - due 2014-02-04].

Impact of pointer capture on hit testing requirements / performance

AB: Rick started this thread on January 24 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0056.html and Jacob replied http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0058.html.
... it appears an informative note we agreed to add last November (https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/rev/3c9741587490) is causing a performance issue, at least for Polymer implementation of PE.

RB: the recent text re events when crossing element boundaries, we get a performance hit

… the action is for me to do more experments

… and gather some specific data

… think it will boil down to a UA implementation issue that doesn't need to be addressed in the spec

JR: I would be interested in seeing some data

… want to know what the content does in these scenarios

RB: it could be a prob with our hit testig

AB: do you want an action Rick?

RB: I think we should close this for now and if/when I have an issue I'll raise it again

AB: works for me

Should Rick's touch-action tests for blink be ported/included to PE test suite?

AB: earlier this month Rick started this thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0014.html and no one replied.

RB: I think we already discussed this

… I can add them

… think we still haven't landed the PR from Microsoft and get Scott's work done

… after those actions are done, and they are higher priority, then we can come back to this

AB: sounds very reasonable

Testing status

AB: can anyone provide a short status on testing? The minutes from our last discussion are http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#item07. My recollection is Jacob and Scott have some open actions.
... open actions are https://www.w3.org/2012/pointerevents/track/actions/open.

JR: someone else (not me) is writing our PE tests

… I need to get an update from them

… I'll check on the status

AB: ok, thanks

CR implementation updates

AB: any new news re implementations?

MB: Gecko impl is moving quickly

<scott_gonzalez> I have to join another call in a minute.

… touch-action can be enabled (not on by default)

… some parts of the impl are awaiting review

AB: that's great; thank you

<mbrubeck_> (Thanks again to MS Open Tech)

AoB

AB: anything else for today?

RB: Edge Conference in London

… I'll be on a panel with Patrick

… audience is experienced developers

… lots of good service providers

… sponsored by Microsoft

… Hope to get more panelists

<smaug> hrm

AB: are you going Jacob or someone from Microsoft?

<smaug> sorry

<smaug> I'm in SF

JR: I won't be able to attend

… but we may get someone

… the discussion last year was great

AB: will be live streamed or recorded?

JR: yes, at least one of those

AB: Matt, how about Mozilla?

MB: I can look into it

RB: that would be good; we need to know who is supporting PE

… the more representation from browser vendors the better

AB: agree
... meeting adjourned

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Default Present: Matt_Brubeck, Art_Barstow, jrossi, rbyers, Scott_Gonzalez, sangwhan, patrick_h_lauke
Present: Art_Barstow Matt_Brubeck Jacob_Rossi Patrick_Lauke Rick_Byers Scott_González Sangwhan_Moon

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Regrets: Doug_Schepers Asir_Vedamuthu Cathy_Chan
Got date from IRC log name: 28 Jan 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html
People with action items: jacob patrick rick sangwhan

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