IRC log of pointerevents on 2014-01-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:00:06 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #pointerevents
16:00:06 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-irc
16:00:11 [ArtB]: RRSAgent, make log public
16:00:37 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
16:01:18 [Zakim]: + +44.797.663.aaaa
16:01:24 [Zakim]: +Art_Barstow
16:01:25 [jrossi]: Zakim, [Microsoft] is jrossi
16:01:25 [Zakim]: +jrossi; got it
16:01:50 [ArtB]: zakim, who's here?
16:01:50 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Matt_Brubeck, jrossi, +44.797.663.aaaa, Art_Barstow
16:01:51 [Zakim]: On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, jrossi, ArtB, patrick_h_lauke, scott_gonzalez, slightlyoff, dfreedm, sangwhan, mbrubeck_, trackbot
16:01:54 [rbyers]: rbyers has joined #pointerevents
16:02:07 [Zakim]: +rbyers
16:02:39 [Zakim]: +Scott_Gonzalez
16:02:41 [rbyers]: zakim, who is here?
16:02:41 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Matt_Brubeck, jrossi, +44.797.663.aaaa, Art_Barstow, rbyers, Scott_Gonzalez
16:02:43 [Zakim]: On IRC I see rbyers, RRSAgent, Zakim, jrossi, ArtB, patrick_h_lauke, scott_gonzalez, slightlyoff, dfreedm, sangwhan, mbrubeck_, trackbot
16:02:46 [ArtB]: Regrets: Asir_Vedamuthu, Cathy_Chan
16:03:30 [ArtB]: Present: Art_Barstow, Matt_Brubeck, Jacob_Rossi, Patrick_Lauke, Rick_Byers
16:03:44 [ArtB]: Present+ Scott_González
16:04:03 [ArtB]: Topic: Tweak agenda
16:04:08 [ArtB]: AB: I posted a draft agenda yesterday http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0057.html. Any change requests?
16:04:17 [ArtB]: AB: Patrick, welcome to the group and thanks for your introduction (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0034.html). FYI, I generally am the scribe of these calls and we expect participants to "embellish and correct" the minutes directly in IRC.
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16:05:04 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:05:13 [sangwhan]: Zakim, IPcaller is me
16:05:13 [Zakim]: +sangwhan; got it
16:05:28 [ArtB]: Present+ Sangwhan_Moon
16:06:07 [patrick_h_lauke]: Zaki, +44.797.663.aaaa is me
16:06:11 [patrick_h_lauke]: oops
16:06:13 [ArtB]: Regrets: Doug_Schepers
16:06:18 [patrick_h_lauke]: Zakim, +44.797.663.aaaa is me
16:06:18 [Zakim]: +patrick_h_lauke; got it
16:06:26 [ArtB]: Topic: Pointer Events types and keyboard/keyboard-like interfaces?
16:06:41 [ArtB]: AB: Patrick started this thread on January 4 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0002.html.
16:06:47 [ArtB]: AB: there was some discussion by Rick, Patrick and Bruce but I don't think there was a resolution or consensus position per se but I could have missed it.
16:07:29 [ArtB]: PL: need to do some testing with polyfills before making a decsion
16:07:36 [ArtB]: … my bg is with WAI
16:07:42 [ArtB]: … Opera has done some related work
16:08:07 [ArtB]: … Discussion ended with we should polyfill and do some testing
16:08:34 [ArtB]: RB: Jacob and I are both conerned about adding too much to the low level primitives
16:09:10 [ArtB]: … having said that, if we can show there is a good need we can discuss this again
16:09:32 [ArtB]: SM: with spatial nav, some elements like href have different behaviour
16:09:39 [ArtB]: … e.g. for mouse click
16:09:51 [ArtB]: … testing is all against mouse handling
16:10:11 [ArtB]: … spatial navigation generates fake mouse events
16:10:25 [ArtB]: … I'm investigating doing same thing for pointerevents
16:10:31 [ArtB]: … but we need to learn more
16:10:45 [ArtB]: … not sure if we need to do something in the spec yet or not
16:10:59 [ArtB]: SG: when it does fail, what events were devs listening to?
16:11:08 [ArtB]: SM: mousedown and mouseup
16:11:19 [ArtB]: … which is normal behaviour for browser
16:11:47 [ArtB]: SG: not sure want to contort spec if people are doing wrong thing
16:12:07 [ArtB]: JR: we have done some similar investigation
16:12:36 [ArtB]: … our primary goal is mouse compat
16:12:45 [sangwhan]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013OctDec/0018.html
16:13:02 [ArtB]: SG: if have a cursor, want pointer events
16:13:17 [ArtB]: … thus new devices can use PEs and just work
16:14:14 [ArtB]: … fine to have a controller that can point and type and to have different events
16:14:41 [ArtB]: PL: what about sequential tabbing thru pages
16:16:11 [ArtB]: … don't want devs to have to lie about their input devices
16:17:29 [ArtB]: [ Scott discusses tool tip scenario … ]
16:18:10 [ArtB]: RB: can understand an api that is agnostic for keyboard, tab, mouse, touch, etc.
16:18:27 [patrick_h_lauke]: fundamental (historic) difference between "focus" and "hover" - if i click with a mouse on a focusable element, i shift focus to it as well, and focus remains there even when "hover" isn't happening anymore
16:19:12 [patrick_h_lauke]: maybe not the right place to fix THIS scenario here (but we've bumped against that in other accessibility discussions already)
16:19:19 [ArtB]: RB: don't want to have to "lie" to get compat
16:19:46 [ArtB]: … if a huge set of sites are broken, then lies can be justfied
16:19:55 [patrick_h_lauke]: RB: making up screen coordinates (as suggested by PL "take center point of focused element) is a "lie"
16:19:59 [ArtB]: … think we need to know which higher level APIs are missing
16:20:23 [ArtB]: SG: hover and focus are different things
16:20:50 [patrick_h_lauke]: SG: developers should be using focus, blur, click which is agnostic
16:21:42 [patrick_h_lauke]: that was matt methinks
16:22:01 [ArtB]: MB: the implementation of hover creates a problem
16:22:19 [ArtB]: … we have a section about mouse events
16:22:31 [ArtB]: … can we do backwards compat in a predictable way
16:22:43 [ArtB]: … without creating other issues
16:23:09 [ArtB]: SG: but some sites are already broken with keyboards
16:24:11 [ArtB]: JR: keyboard interaction model is a lot different than the new devices
16:24:16 [patrick_h_lauke]: question for/from me is: with pointer events we have a clean slate, but will developers fall back to the same (wrong) practices and ignore keyboard
16:24:53 [ArtB]: JR: keyboards don't hover, not pixel based
16:25:28 [ArtB]: … when I look at what people are building with PE, not clear how keyboard would fit in
16:26:11 [ArtB]: … don't think we should add anything to the spec until we have more data
16:26:23 [ArtB]: RB: yes, agree; need more experience
16:26:56 [patrick_h_lauke]: Q+
16:27:50 [Zakim]: -Matt_Brubeck
16:27:58 [ArtB]: AB: seems like we don't quite have enough experience and data to agree to a change to the spec
16:28:35 [ArtB]: SM: if we don't generate any compat events, think we are going to have problem
16:29:13 [ArtB]: ACTION: sangwhan make a proposal re the keyboard compat issue
16:29:13 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-63 - Make a proposal re the keyboard compat issue [on Sangwhan Moon - due 2014-02-04].
16:29:21 [sangwhan]: ack patrick_h_lauke
16:29:30 [ArtB]: PL: don't want devs to fall back on old practices
16:29:37 [ArtB]: … perhaps an advisory note
16:29:43 [ArtB]: … should be added to the spec
16:29:52 [ArtB]: RB: I like that idea
16:30:07 [ArtB]: … non-normative note makes sense
16:30:08 [jrossi]: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEvents.html#compatibility-mapping-with-mouse-events
16:30:24 [ArtB]: ACTION: patrick propose a non-normative note re the keyboard compat issue
16:30:24 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-64 - Propose a non-normative note re the keyboard compat issue [on Patrick Lauke - due 2014-02-04].
16:30:45 [ArtB]: JR: we already have something like that and we can add some more text
16:30:48 [patrick_h_lauke]: JR: add to the note importance about a11y
16:31:03 [patrick_h_lauke]: RB: also add focus/blur advice
16:31:10 [ArtB]: Topic: Touch-action to SVG elements
16:31:19 [ArtB]: AB: this thread was started by Gnanasekar S, January 13 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/att-0016/00-part.
16:31:26 [ArtB]: AB: Rick sent two replies: first http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0018.html and second is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0024.html.
16:31:39 [ArtB]: RB: he works for Samsung in India
16:31:48 [ArtB]: … he has been landing some patches in Blink
16:31:58 [ArtB]: … I encouraged him to send this message
16:32:04 [ArtB]: AB: What's the group's position on this? Do we do nothing, is a minor clarification/tweak to the PE spec needed, or something else?
16:32:51 [ArtB]: RB: my reading of the spec is that touch-action doesn't apply to SVG elements
16:33:04 [ArtB]: JR: perhaps the problem is the text wasn't meant to be plural
16:33:28 [ArtB]: RB: perhaps we just need a clarification then
16:33:38 [ArtB]: JR: use "The" SVG element
16:34:37 [ArtB]: JR: would be good if Doug were here
16:34:41 [ArtB]: AB: good point
16:34:49 [Zakim]: -patrick_h_lauke
16:35:09 [ArtB]: ACTION: jacob create a proposal to address the SVG element issue
16:35:10 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-65 - Create a proposal to address the svg element issue [on Jacob Rossi - due 2014-02-04].
16:35:10 [patrick_h_lauke]: sorry folks, have to shoot off
16:35:34 [ArtB]: RB: also need to make sure the use of "block" is correct
16:35:38 [patrick_h_lauke]: feel free to assign anything more to me later from "my" topics
16:35:47 [ArtB]: JR: we can certainly reach out to the SVG WG
16:35:52 [patrick_h_lauke]: patrick_h_lauke has left #pointerevents
16:35:55 [ArtB]: RB: yeah, good idea
16:36:11 [ArtB]: … let's make sure we get them to help us get the text correct
16:36:50 [ArtB]: Topic: Bug 24346; Clarifications on Pointer Events Types section;
16:37:02 [ArtB]: AB: this bug was filed by Patrick on January 21. https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24346 as a followup to the "`List of Pointer Events` table default actions" thread between Patrick and Rick on January 17 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0025.html
16:37:41 [ArtB]: AB: do we want to discuss this now?
16:37:53 [ArtB]: RB: I think Jacob replied
16:38:05 [ArtB]: JR: I think Patrick proposed text but I have made the change
16:38:14 [ArtB]: RB: I made some minor tweaks too
16:38:30 [ArtB]: ACTION: Jacob address Bug 24346 per the agreement during the 28-Jan-2014 call
16:38:30 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-66 - Address bug 24346 per the agreement during the 28-jan-2014 call [on Jacob Rossi - due 2014-02-04].
16:38:44 [ArtB]: Topic: Bug 24348; pointerdown/pointerup/pointercancel on non-hover devices;
16:38:52 [ArtB]: AB: Patrick filed this bug on 21-Jan-2014 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24348.
16:38:52 [ArtB]: AB: Jacob fixed the bug in in latest ED https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/default/pointerEvents.html via two changsets (URLs are in the bug).
16:38:58 [ArtB]: AB: is there anything we need to discuss or is the latest ED with Jacob's two changes OK?
16:39:41 [ArtB]: RB: I agree Jacob's patches are good
16:39:47 [ArtB]: AB: any objections?
16:39:50 [ArtB]: [ None ]
16:39:55 [ArtB]: RESOLUTION: Jacob's patches for bug 24348 are OK
16:40:06 [ArtB]: Topic: Clarification on "cancelling" pointerdown
16:40:12 [ArtB]: AB: Patrick started this thread on January 22 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0041.html. Matt replied http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0048.html.
16:40:20 [ArtB]: AB: do we need a minor clarification or is there something more?
16:40:48 [ArtB]: RB: I agree with Matt's comment
16:41:30 [ArtB]: JR: yes, need a DOM4 reference
16:41:44 [ArtB]: ACTION: Jacob create a bug for the "Clarification on 'cancelling' pointerdown" issue and address it per the discussion on 28-Jan-2014
16:41:44 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-67 - Create a bug for the "clarification on 'cancelling' pointerdown" issue and address it per the discussion on 28-jan-2014 [on Jacob Rossi - due 2014-02-04].
16:42:00 [ArtB]: Topic: initial thoughts: pointerup and "click"/"contextmenu";
16:42:11 [ArtB]: AB: Patrick started this thread on January 22 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0042.html. Jacob replied on January 24 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0055.html.
16:42:44 [ArtB]: SM: I'm looking at bug on Opera mobile with touch events
16:43:53 [ArtB]: … there is a scenario where touch cancel causes some compat issues
16:44:06 [ArtB]: … think we are going to have the same problem with pointerevents
16:44:27 [ArtB]: JR: re ordering, I replied to Patrick with my thoughts
16:44:40 [ArtB]: … different solutions have been implememted
16:45:10 [ArtB]: SM: context menu can obstruct the pointer
16:45:23 [ArtB]: … and in that case, it should be canceled
16:45:37 [ArtB]: JR: if press and hold on Safari, menu appears below finger
16:45:47 [ArtB]: … can expect cancel happening
16:45:59 [ArtB]: … in IE we do things differently
16:46:14 [ArtB]: … get up first and then context menu
16:47:01 [ArtB]: JR: does IE supress context menu if a move is in place
16:47:13 [Zakim]: +Matt_Brubeck
16:47:14 [ArtB]: JR: the event should always fire
16:47:58 [ArtB]: RB: I agree with Jacob that this is outside the scope of this group
16:48:18 [ArtB]: … not clear that all browsers would want to agree on a behavior
16:48:33 [ArtB]: SM: that's fine
16:48:55 [ArtB]: JR: it wouldn't hurt to add a non-normative note about this
16:49:03 [ArtB]: … and mention UAs will vary here
16:49:05 [rbyers]: s/JR/RB
16:49:25 [ArtB]: AB: would that be ok Jacob?
16:49:29 [ArtB]: JR: yes, that would be fine
16:49:57 [ArtB]: RB: I can propose a sentence
16:50:20 [ArtB]: SM: think we can add a note in the compat section
16:50:26 [ArtB]: … just need a sentence
16:51:02 [ArtB]: ACTION: rick make a proposal to address the context menu issue per discussion on 28-Jan-2014
16:51:02 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-68 - Make a proposal to address the context menu issue per discussion on 28-jan-2014 [on Rick Byers - due 2014-02-04].
16:51:14 [ArtB]: Topic: Impact of pointer capture on hit testing requirements / performance
16:51:25 [ArtB]: AB: Rick started this thread on January 24 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0056.html and Jacob replied http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0058.html.
16:51:38 [ArtB]: AB: it appears an informative note we agreed to add last November (https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/rev/3c9741587490) is causing a performance issue, at least for Polymer implementation of PE.
16:52:42 [ArtB]: RB: the recent text re events when crossing element boundaries, we get a performance hit
16:53:08 [ArtB]: … the action is for me to do more experments
16:53:22 [ArtB]: … and gather some specific data
16:53:41 [ArtB]: … think it will boil down to a UA implementation issue that doesn't need to be addressed in the spec
16:53:52 [ArtB]: JR: I would be interested in seeing some data
16:54:05 [ArtB]: … want to know what the content does in these scenarios
16:54:32 [ArtB]: RB: it could be a prob with our hit testig
16:54:53 [ArtB]: AB: do you want an action Rick?
16:55:16 [ArtB]: RB: I think we should close this for now and if/when I have an issue I'll raise it again
16:55:21 [ArtB]: AB: works for me
16:55:41 [ArtB]: Topic: Should Rick's touch-action tests for blink be ported/included to PE test suite?
16:55:51 [ArtB]: AB: earlier this month Rick started this thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0014.html and no one replied.
16:56:16 [ArtB]: RB: I think we already discussed this
16:56:30 [ArtB]: … I can add them
16:56:55 [ArtB]: … think we still haven't landed the PR from Microsoft and get Scott's work done
16:57:16 [ArtB]: … after those actions are done, and they are higher priority, then we can come back to this
16:57:27 [ArtB]: AB: sounds very reasonable
16:57:37 [ArtB]: Topic: Testing status
16:57:44 [ArtB]: AB: can anyone provide a short status on testing? The minutes from our last discussion are http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#item07. My recollection is Jacob and Scott have some open actions.
16:58:01 [ArtB]: AB: open actions are https://www.w3.org/2012/pointerevents/track/actions/open.
16:58:44 [ArtB]: JR: someone else (not me) is writing our PE tests
16:58:58 [ArtB]: … I need to get an update from them
16:59:16 [ArtB]: … I'll check on the status
16:59:20 [ArtB]: AB: ok, thanks
16:59:40 [ArtB]: Topic: CR implementation updates
16:59:48 [ArtB]: AB: any new news re implementations?
17:00:14 [ArtB]: MB: Gecko impl is moving quickly
17:00:17 [scott_gonzalez]: I have to join another call in a minute.
17:00:30 [ArtB]: … touch-action can be enabled (not on by default)
17:00:42 [ArtB]: … some parts of the impl are awaiting review
17:00:49 [ArtB]: AB: that's great; thank you
17:00:54 [mbrubeck_]: (Thanks again to MS Open Tech)
17:01:15 [Zakim]: -Scott_Gonzalez
17:01:22 [ArtB]: Topic: AoB
17:01:28 [ArtB]: AB: anything else for today?
17:01:38 [ArtB]: RB: Edge Conference in London
17:01:45 [ArtB]: … I'll be on a panel with Patrick
17:02:02 [ArtB]: … audience is experienced developers
17:02:11 [ArtB]: … lots of good service providers
17:02:15 [ArtB]: … sponsored by Microsoft
17:02:23 [ArtB]: … Hope to get more panelists
17:02:25 [smaug]: smaug has joined #pointerevents
17:02:47 [smaug]: hrm
17:02:48 [ArtB]: AB: are you going Jacob or someone from Microsoft?
17:02:48 [smaug]: sorry
17:02:50 [smaug]: I'm in SF
17:02:56 [ArtB]: JR: I won't be able to attend
17:03:02 [ArtB]: … but we may get someone
17:03:20 [ArtB]: … the discussion last year was great
17:03:30 [ArtB]: AB: will be live streamed or recorded?
17:03:38 [ArtB]: JR: yes, at least one of those
17:04:04 [ArtB]: AB: Matt, how about Mozilla?
17:04:12 [ArtB]: MB: I can look into it
17:04:30 [ArtB]: RB: that would be good; we need to know who is supporting PE
17:04:46 [ArtB]: … the more representation from browser vendors the better
17:04:53 [ArtB]: AB: agree
17:05:49 [ArtB]: AB: meeting adjourned
17:05:55 [Zakim]: -Art_Barstow
17:05:57 [Zakim]: -Matt_Brubeck
17:05:58 [Zakim]: -rbyers
17:06:00 [Zakim]: -jrossi
17:06:01 [ArtB]: RRSAgent, make minutes
17:06:01 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB
17:06:01 [Zakim]: -sangwhan
17:06:02 [Zakim]: RWC_PEWG()11:00AM has ended
17:06:02 [Zakim]: Attendees were Matt_Brubeck, Art_Barstow, jrossi, rbyers, Scott_Gonzalez, sangwhan, patrick_h_lauke
17:06:22 [ArtB]: RRSAgent, make log public
17:06:38 [ArtB]: Chair: Art
17:06:43 [ArtB]: RRSAgent, make minutes
17:06:43 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB
17:08:30 [ArtB]: Regrets+ Asir_Vedamuthu, Cathy_Chan
17:08:37 [ArtB]: RRSAgent, make minutes
17:08:37 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB
17:09:27 [ArtB]: Meeting: Pointer Events Working Group Voice Conference
17:09:33 [ArtB]: RRSAgent, make minutes
17:09:33 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB
17:17:55 [shepazu]: shepazu has joined #pointerevents
17:19:48 [ArtB]: zakim, by
17:19:48 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'by', ArtB
17:19:52 [ArtB]: zakim, bye
17:19:52 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #pointerevents
17:19:55 [ArtB]: rrsagent, bye
17:19:55 [RRSAgent]: I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-actions.rdf :
17:19:55 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: sangwhan make a proposal re the keyboard compat issue [1]
17:19:55 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-irc#T16-29-13
17:19:55 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: patrick propose a non-normative note re the keyboard compat issue [2]
17:19:55 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-irc#T16-30-24
17:19:55 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: jacob create a proposal to address the SVG element issue [3]
17:19:55 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-irc#T16-35-09
17:19:55 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Jacob address Bug 24346 per the agreement during the 28-Jan-2014 call [4]
17:19:55 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-irc#T16-38-30
17:19:55 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Jacob create a bug for the "Clarification on 'cancelling' pointerdown" issue and address it per the discussion on 28-Jan-2014 [5]
17:19:55 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-irc#T16-41-44
17:19:55 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: rick make a proposal to address the context menu issue per discussion on 28-Jan-2014 [6]
17:19:55 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-irc#T16-51-02