W3C

- DRAFT -

SVG Working Group Teleconference

16 Jan 2014

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Regrets
Chair
Cameron
Scribe
birtles

Contents


<trackbot> Date: 16 January 2014

<scribe> scribenick: birtles

<scribe> scribe: birtles

removing animateColor from SVG2

ed: I raised the topic because I recently filed a patch to remove animateColor from blink
... I don't think there's any reason to keep it around in SVG2 any longer since you can do everything animateColor can do with animate anyway

krit: we kept it just because of legacy reasons
... but we agree that there's no need for it

ed: the reason we decided to remove it from blink is that the usage is very low

krit: the problem with the usage counters is we don't know how much SVG is used
... but we deprecated animateColor in SVG 1.1 so I have no problem with removing it from SVG2
... but we will probably keep it around in WebKit, maybe for the short-term

ed: so are we ok with removing it from SVG2?

shepazu: I guess so
... I understand that it is redundant
... but my only concern is existing content, but there's probably very little content

krit: I think we deprecated in 1.1 not 1.1SE right?

ed: yes

krit: then we can probably remove it

s/1.1SE not 1.1/

heycam: what sort of usage numbers did you get?

ed: less than 1 usage per week? a lot less than 1% anyway

shepazu: but we don't know how that compares to usage of SVG in general
... so it's really guess from intuition
... how much is animate used

ed: a lot since libraries use it to test for SMIL support

shepazu: how about animateTransform?
... but I think we're going to remove it anyway

ed: it's very easy to work around by just aliasing to animate using javascript

heycam: have you already landed the patch to remove it?

ed: yes

shepazu: let's just remove it
... we already deprecated it right?

ed: yes

shepazu: are we going to leave any mention of it?

heycam: I don't think we need to

shepazu: but we should mention it somewhere, like the changes appendix

heycam: we can mention it there

RESOLUTION: We will remove animateColor from SVG2 (and mention it in the changes appendix)

<krit> ACTION: erik and brian to figure out who gets the action [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-svg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3557 - And brian to figure out who gets the action [on Erik Dahlström - due 2014-01-23].

<scribe> ACTION: Erik to remove animateColor from SVG2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-svg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3558 - Remove animatecolor from svg2 [on Erik Dahlström - due 2014-01-23].

Panel session at Graphical Web 2014

heycam: I got email from Michael Neutze and David Dailey about updating the w3c page to refer to the Graphical Web
... for this year's conference since we were still pointing to last year's conference
... and they were also asking whether we had plans to meet at the conference and if we want to present a panel session
... so do you want to present a session?

<heycam> http://graphicalweb.org/2014/

krit: do you mean a working group session like in previous years?

heycam: yes

krit: well then, why not?
... we should actually look at who will host the next meetings

heycam: we should. For September it's more open since we might not meet out in Winchester
... but for the next one...

krit: we (Adobe) are hosting for Seattle but not for the next one

(some discussion about arrangements for April)

heycam: so can we say we will do a panel session?

krit, shepazu: yes

heycam: Mozilla may be a host if we don't mind meeting in London at that time

shepazu: we could also have an open day where people from the conference can come and meet with people from the WG
... and attend the F2F
... David Storey from Microsoft are organizing a session between CSS and SVG WG meetings, a hacker meetup

heycam: on the Tuesday night? Wednesday night?

shepazu: yes
... David asked me to present at the little meet-up. Anyone else is also welcome to present

heycam: Tues or Wed?

shepazu: Wed I think
... you can present about anything SVG/CSS related
... keep it in mind. I'll do a quick SVG accessibility talk
... the theme is "CSS and Web Graphics"
... they'd like a presentation on "What's coming up in SVG2?"
... so if you can point me to any slidedecks on this

heycam: I'll try to find my slides from a talk several years ago

birtles: I could do the animation demo from SVGOpen if needed

Agenda requests for Seattle F2F

<heycam> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Seattle_2013/Agenda_proposals

krit: I'd like to add a few agenda requests

heycam: go ahead and add them
... I'd just like to remind people to add items
... it's been quite a short time between F2Fs, maybe there's not so much to add, but if we have remaining time we can use it for spec editing

shepazu: I think I will have the demo version of the annotation thing going on the web audio spec so I could possibly demo that

percentage on objectBoundingBox relative to the bounding box of the object?

krit: so you have things like <mask>, <pattern> etc. and for the content you can switch between objectBoundingBox or userSpaceOnUse
... for objectBoundingBox you can use numbers from 0..1 or percentages but I'm not really sure what percentages actually mean

heycam: my naive understanding was 100% = 1 but I guess that's not the case

krit: yes, it doesn't seem to be
... I would interpret the spec text as percentages of the viewport but I don't think that is a good idea

heycam: I think making them viewport-relative would be confusing

krit: I was hoping someone would know what browsers are actually doing?

<scribe> ACTION: Dirk to investigate what browsers actually do for percentage values for objectBoundingBox with pattern, mask etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-svg-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3559 - Investigate what browsers actually do for percentage values for objectboundingbox with pattern, mask etc. [on Dirk Schulze - due 2014-01-23].

krit: I posted this question on the mailing list...

<heycam> http://www.w3.org/mid/7DADDAB2-1EE8-40D5-A697-472ECA7B4078@adobe.com

heycam: so this is percentages within the content of the pattern etc.
... and it says they get resolved against the viewport
... and objectBoundingBox doesn't establish a new viewport right?

krit: no they don't, but they can

heycam: from your email it looks like something should change
... does anyone else have an opinion about whether it is a good idea that percentages apply against the viewport if we defined what that is?
... and which viewport would that be?

krit: that's the next item on the agenda

shepazu: should we deprecate symbol?

Tav: it's implemented and used in maps etc.

krit: it's not implemented correctly thought

shepazu: <symbol> is actually useless

krit: it has an implicit visibility:hidden

shepazu: but you don't need it

heycam: does <symbol> have the same sizing behavior as <svg>?

??: yes

krit: Illustrator exports <symbol> so deprecate ok, but not removing
... we could add a note saying authors don't need to use it

shepazu: I suggest we define it in terms of <svg>
... just sugar for <svg>

heycam: I wonder if there is scope for improving the functionality of <symbol>
... if there are use cases surrounding re-using graphics

shepazu: let's add that to an agenda sometime

heycam: please it add it to the F2F agenda

Which viewport to use when SVG resource (<pattern>, <mask>, ...) and affected element are in two different viewports

krit: so it is quite clear that in these cases that viewport is that of the referencing element
... according to the spec
... but none of the browsers implementations do that
... the only implementations that do that are Opera (Presto), Inkscape and Batik

heycam: what is the incorrect behaviour?

krit: if you have a path element in one viewport and a pattern in the other
... the pattern should use the viewport of the path element for resolving sizes like percentages
... but browsers take the viewport of the pattern (or mask etc.) element instead
... which doesn't really make sense but that's what browsers do: IE, Chrome, Firefox, Opera

heycam: I suspect what the spec says may be more useful

krit: it might be useful
... but reality is that none of the browsers are following the spec but are still interoperable
... the browsers are aware of the bug (or at least Robert Longson identified it in Firefox)

<krit> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=866655

krit: it is also known in WebKit
... but it was too difficult to fix it
... not worth the effort

heycam: so are you suggesting we just spec what the browsers are currently doing?

Tav: I don't agree. If it's more useful to do it as currently specced then we should do that

heycam: yeah, I think I agree

krit: from the specification point of view it doesn't matter since we have at least two implementations of each alternative
... if we keep the current spec, it might take sometime before browsers come into line

heycam: we could add tests to the suite for this

krit: I can do that

heycam: if you can construct an example where it is actually useful, that would help

krit: but when are percentages resolved relative to the viewport ever useful?

heycam: if you have a grid pattern and shapes that should be aligned with the grid pattern?

krit: I think you would use absolute values in this case
... it's an edge case

<scribe> ACTION: Dirk to create a test case for the test suite covering percentage units resolved against the viewport of the referencing element [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-svg-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3560 - Create a test case for the test suite covering percentage units resolved against the viewport of the referencing element [on Dirk Schulze - due 2014-01-23].

<krit> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Agenda

Background reference boxes in SVG

krit: What affect has a reference box (padding-box, content-box, border-box, margin-box) to a basic shape in SVG i.e. clip-path: circle() margin-box?
... HTML has the concept of a content box
... what we would call the object bounding box
... then it has a padding box which we don't have in SVG
... then border box and margin box neither of which we have in SVG
... we do have stroke however (similar to border box)

Tav: I had to look at this with regards to text wrapping
... and in SVG I think we need separate values

krit: I'd rather avoid adding extra keywords

Tav: I think that's confusing from an author's point of view

krit: in any case we need to define what these keywords mean

Tav: there's the viewport, bounding box (fill + stroke versions)

heycam: these keywords change how the values in the property get interpreted
... so if you use one of these basic-shape functions in the value these keywords change how they get interpreted
... I think it will be common that people will want to do things relative to the stroke bounding box of the shapes
... so if we were to line it up with these keywords then border-box seems like a possible candidate but I think border-box has a very specific meaning

krit: anyway I just wanted to introduce the issue, we can continue on the mailing list

<Tav> I got cut off and the conference is now restricted....

heycam: no telcon next week since some people will be travelling by then
... next time we meet is the F2F in Seattle
... if you have outstanding issues on the mailing list, please add them to the agenda for the F2F

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Dirk to create a test case for the test suite covering percentage units resolved against the viewport of the referencing element [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-svg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Dirk to investigate what browsers actually do for percentage values for objectBoundingBox with pattern, mask etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: erik and brian to figure out who gets the action [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Erik to remove animateColor from SVG2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-svg-minutes.html#action02]
 
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.138 (CVS log)
$Date: 2014-01-16 21:35:11 $

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

FAILED: s/1.1SE not 1.1//
Succeeded: s/get rid of it/remove it/
Succeeded: s/you email/your email/
Found ScribeNick: birtles
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Inferring ScribeNick: birtles

WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: Doug_Schepers IPcaller P2 Rich_Schwerdtfeger Tav birtles cabanier ed glenn heycam https joined krit richardschwerdtfeger scribenick shepazu stakagi svg trackbot
You can indicate people for the Present list like this:
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        <dbooth> Present+ amy

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2014JanMar/0012.html
Found Date: 16 Jan 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: brian dirk erik

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