14:43:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/28-xhtml-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/28-xhtml-irc ←
14:43:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs public ←
14:43:15 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2 ←
14:43:15 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes ←
14:43:16 <trackbot> Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference
14:43:16 <trackbot> Date: 28 January 2009
14:43:33 <Roland> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0072.html
14:43:42 <Roland> Chair: Roland
14:44:22 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started ←
14:44:29 <Zakim> +??P5
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5 ←
14:44:41 <Zakim> +Roland
Zakim IRC Bot: +Roland ←
14:44:54 <Zakim> +??P12
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12 ←
14:45:05 <ShaneM> zakim, ??P12 is ShaneM
Shane McCarron: zakim, ??P12 is ShaneM ←
14:45:05 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM; got it ←
14:45:06 <mgylling> Zakim, ??P5 is mgylling
Markus Gylling: Zakim, ??P5 is mgylling ←
14:45:06 <Zakim> +mgylling; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +mgylling; got it ←
14:45:08 <Roland> Zakim, ??P5 is mgylling
Roland Merrick: Zakim, ??P5 is mgylling ←
14:45:08 <Zakim> I already had ??P5 as mgylling, Roland
Zakim IRC Bot: I already had ??P5 as mgylling, Roland ←
14:45:12 <Zakim> + +04670855aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +04670855aaaa ←
14:45:24 <Tina> Zakim, aaaa is Tina
Tina Holmboe: Zakim, aaaa is Tina ←
14:45:24 <Zakim> +Tina; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Tina; got it ←
14:46:32 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←
14:46:32 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←
14:46:34 <Zakim> +Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←
14:47:40 <Steven> Regrets: Gregory
14:47:51 <Steven> scribe: Steven
(Scribe set to Steven Pemberton)
14:48:38 <Steven> Topic: XHTML Media types
14:48:46 <Steven> Steven: It should be up any minute this afternoon
Steven Pemberton: It should be up any minute this afternoon ←
14:48:56 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-media-types/
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-media-types/ ←
14:49:22 <Zakim> +??P13
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13 ←
14:49:32 <alessio> zakim, ??P13 is Alessio
Alessio Cartocci: zakim, ??P13 is Alessio ←
14:49:32 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Alessio; got it ←
14:49:41 <Steven> Topic: @lang
14:50:03 <Steven> Roland: If we want that in the specs, then we would need the change before we do the transition requests
Roland Merrick: If we want that in the specs, then we would need the change before we do the transition requests ←
14:50:14 <Steven> Sahne: I don't min
Shane?: I don't mind ←
14:50:27 <Steven> s/Sahne/Shane?
14:50:29 <Steven> s/min/mind/
14:50:42 <Steven> ... but it only really affects 1.1
... but it only really affects 1.1 ←
14:50:58 <Steven> Roland: Mobile Web want it in Basic as well
Roland Merrick: Mobile Web want it in Basic as well ←
14:51:50 <Steven> Shane: @lang is harmless and helpful
Shane McCarron: @lang is harmless and helpful ←
14:52:00 <Steven> Roland: And there is support from I18N
Roland Merrick: And there is support from I18N ←
14:52:33 <Steven> Shane: We have to say something about how the two interact
Shane McCarron: We have to say something about how the two interact ←
14:53:00 <Steven> ... but putting @lang into 1.1 invalidates the XHTML Media types doc
... but putting @lang into 1.1 invalidates the XHTML Media types doc ←
14:53:46 <Steven> Shane: Someone from Opera complained about us minting new DOCTYPEs
Shane McCarron: Someone from Opera complained about us minting new DOCTYPEs ←
14:54:15 <Steven> ... because they hardwire the DTD names
... because they hardwire the DTD names ←
14:54:30 <Steven> ... I told them that we have rules for DTD names, and it ought to work
... I told them that we have rules for DTD names, and it ought to work ←
14:55:03 <Steven> ... so if you serve Firefox a 1.1+RDFa doc, then character entities don't work
... so if you serve Firefox a 1.1+RDFa doc, then character entities don't work ←
14:55:49 <Steven> Steven: But the media type says it
Steven Pemberton: But the media type says it ←
14:55:54 <Steven> Shane: True
Shane McCarron: True ←
14:56:11 <Steven> Shane: But I am now nervous about telling people to use new DOCTYPES
Shane McCarron: But I am now nervous about telling people to use new DOCTYPES ←
14:56:30 <Steven> Tina: People need character entities
Tina Holmboe: People need character entities ←
14:56:43 <Steven> Tina: Tricky
Tina Holmboe: Tricky ←
14:57:27 <Steven> Steven: This is a bug in the browser
Steven Pemberton: This is a bug in the browser ←
15:00:46 <Steven> ... strictly they should recognise the DTD
... strictly they should recognise the DTD ←
15:00:57 <Steven> ... if they take a shortcut
... if they take a shortcut ←
15:01:48 <Steven> ... recognising a small set of hardwired DTD names is nto good enough
... recognising a small set of hardwired DTD names is nto good enough ←
15:02:02 <Steven> ... they should use the namespace (or something)
... they should use the namespace (or something) ←
15:02:07 <Steven> Shane: Or the media type
Shane McCarron: Or the media type ←
15:02:39 <Steven> Roland: Aren't we off topic; this is a different issue to @lang
Roland Merrick: Aren't we off topic; this is a different issue to @lang ←
15:02:44 <Steven> Shane: Yes, I ratholed
Shane McCarron: Yes, I ratholed ←
15:03:56 <Steven> ... the fundamental issue isn't to authors who deliver as text/html, but application/xhtml+xml
... the fundamental issue isn't to authors who deliver as text/html, but application/xhtml+xml ←
15:04:36 <Steven> ... we need to address the larger issue for 1.2
... we need to address the larger issue for 1.2 ←
15:05:27 <Steven> Roland: Anybosy opposed adding @lang to 1.1 for this transition?
Roland Merrick: Anybody opposed to adding @lang to 1.1 for this transition? ←
15:05:34 <Steven> s/bosy/body/
15:05:44 <Steven> s/adding/to adding/
15:06:30 <Steven> ... and Basic
... and Basic ←
15:07:04 <Steven> RESOLVED: add @lang to 1.1 and Basic before transitioning
RESOLVED: add @lang to 1.1 and Basic before transitioning ←
15:07:53 <Steven> Steven: Should I continue with the transition of 1.0, or wait for them all to go together?
Steven Pemberton: Should I continue with the transition of 1.0, or wait for them all to go together? ←
15:08:08 <Steven> Shane: I can make the change really quickly
Shane McCarron: I can make the change really quickly ←
15:09:01 <Steven> ... I will send out tomorrow proposed language
... I will send out tomorrow proposed language ←
15:09:07 <Steven> ... until Friday for comment
... until Friday for comment ←
15:09:13 <Steven> ... Transition request Monday
... Transition request Monday ←
15:09:21 <Steven> Steven: OK
Steven Pemberton: OK ←
15:09:29 <Steven> Tina: No objections
Tina Holmboe: No objections ←
15:09:49 <Steven> TOPIC: XHTML2
15:10:05 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
15:10:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/28-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/28-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←
15:10:32 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0072.html
Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0072.html ←
15:10:43 <Steven> Tina: I prefer to keep useful elements in
Tina Holmboe: I prefer to keep useful elements in ←
15:10:51 <Roland> INS and DEL http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0012.html
Roland Merrick: INS and DEL http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0012.html ←
15:13:40 <Steven> Steven: The attributes are much more useful
Steven Pemberton: The attributes are much more useful ←
15:15:59 <Steven> ... you can't delete or insert a table row for instance
... you can't delete or insert a table row for instance ←
15:16:42 <Steven> Roland: I think that doing this as metadata works quite well
Roland Merrick: I think that doing this as metadata works quite well ←
15:16:58 <Steven> ... but if people are used to ins and del, we could keep them as well
... but if people are used to ins and del, we could keep them as well ←
15:18:23 <Steven> Shane: It is difficult to express the content models of ins and del with schema and DTD
Shane McCarron: It is difficult to express the content models of ins and del with schema and DTD ←
15:18:26 <Steven> q+
q+ ←
15:22:40 <Steven> q-
q- ←
15:23:21 <Steven> Steven: Attributes make more possible, and in the bargain solves the problem of the messy content models
Steven Pemberton: Attributes make more possible, and in the bargain solves the problem of the messy content models ←
15:24:57 <Steven> Roland: insertion and deletion is metadata about a paragraph for instance, not structure
Roland Merrick: insertion and deletion is metadata about a paragraph for instance, not structure ←
15:25:09 <Steven> Tina: But what about included text
Tina Holmboe: But what about included text ←
15:25:20 <Steven> Roland: That was my proposed compromise
Roland Merrick: That was my proposed compromise ←
15:25:28 <Steven> ... only allow ins and del in text content
... only allow ins and del in text content ←
15:25:45 <alessio> +1
Alessio Cartocci: +1 ←
15:26:02 <Steven> Roland: Let's discuss this in the mail then
Roland Merrick: Let's discuss this in the list then ←
15:26:08 <Steven> s/mail/list
15:26:43 <Steven> Topic: p content model
15:28:11 <Steven> Steven: I don't see what the problem is
Steven Pemberton: I don't see what the problem is ←
15:28:40 <Steven> ... we enlarged the content model to include what people think of as a paragraph
... we enlarged the content model to include what people think of as a paragraph ←
15:30:27 <Steven> ... People sent us use cases that we agreed to support
... People sent us use cases that we agreed to support ←
15:30:54 <Steven> ... you don't *have* to include quotations or tables in a paragraph, but you have the option
... you don't *have* to include quotations or tables in a paragraph, but you have the option ←
15:31:16 <Steven> Tina: I'm not convinced that they are valid use cases
Tina Holmboe: I'm not convinced that they are valid use cases ←
15:31:47 <Steven> ... can we dig out some language expert who will resolve this?
... can we dig out some language expert who will resolve this? ←
15:34:25 <Steven> Roland: We shouldn't legislate what the user may think of as a paragraph
Roland Merrick: We shouldn't legislate what the user may think of as a paragraph ←
15:34:33 <Steven> ... the author may decide
... the author may decide ←
15:35:07 <Steven> Shane: At the moment you can have a p inside a p
Shane McCarron: At the moment you can have a p inside a p ←
15:38:01 <Steven> ... I checked the issues case and indeed we have people asking for this
... I checked the issues case and indeed we have people asking for this ←
15:38:08 <Steven> ... but also the reverse
... but also the reverse ←
15:40:54 <ShaneM> I am now convinced by Steven's example.
Shane McCarron: I am now convinced by Steven's example. ←
15:42:24 <ShaneM> Steven's exeample was a paragraph that said "Today I will do: (some table of stuff) then I will go home."
Shane McCarron: Steven's exeample was a paragraph that said "Today I will do: (some table of stuff) then I will go home." ←
15:42:57 <Steven> Steven: I want to be able to write "Here is an example: [[1][2][3][4]], which show sthat...."
Steven Pemberton: I want to be able to write "Here is an example: [[1][2][3][4]], which show sthat...." ←
15:43:09 <alessio> I've seen many example, expecially in the public administrations sites
Alessio Cartocci: I've seen many example, expecially in the public administrations sites ←
15:43:21 <Steven> ... and I don't want to be disallowed that.
... and I don't want to be disallowed that. ←
15:43:38 <Steven> ... If you don't want to do that, don't do it, but please don't try to stop me doing it.
... If you don't want to do that, don't do it, but please don't try to stop me doing it. ←
15:44:23 <ShaneM> p content model is currently (PCDATA | Text | List | blockcode | blockquote | pre | table )*
Shane McCarron: p content model is currently (PCDATA | Text | List | blockcode | blockquote | pre | table )* ←
15:44:27 <Steven> Roland: Time's up
Roland Merrick: Time's up ←
15:45:30 <Steven> ... I will study the content model further
... I will study the content model further ←
15:45:31 <Zakim> -ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←
15:45:33 <Zakim> -mgylling
Zakim IRC Bot: -mgylling ←
15:45:35 <Zakim> -Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←
15:45:38 <Steven> [Adjourn]
[Adjourn] ←
15:45:40 <Zakim> -Alessio
Zakim IRC Bot: -Alessio ←
15:45:41 <Zakim> -Roland
Zakim IRC Bot: -Roland ←
15:46:06 <alessio> bye! :)
Alessio Cartocci: bye! :) ←
15:46:19 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
zakim, who is here? ←
15:46:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tina
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Tina ←
15:46:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, ShaneM, Roland, Tina, Steven, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, ShaneM, Roland, Tina, Steven, trackbot ←
15:46:25 <Steven> zakim, dro ptina
zakim, dro ptina ←
15:46:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'dro ptina', Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'dro ptina', Steven ←
15:46:30 <Steven> zakim, drop tine
zakim, drop tine ←
15:46:30 <Zakim> sorry, Steven, I do not see a party named 'tine'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Steven, I do not see a party named 'tine' ←
15:46:35 <Steven> zakim, drop tina
zakim, drop tina ←
15:46:35 <Zakim> Tina is being disconnected
Zakim IRC Bot: Tina is being disconnected ←
15:46:36 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended ←
15:46:37 <Zakim> Attendees were Roland, ShaneM, mgylling, +04670855aaaa, Tina, Steven, Alessio
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Roland, ShaneM, mgylling, +04670855aaaa, Tina, Steven, Alessio ←
15:46:42 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
rrsagent, make minutes ←
15:46:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/28-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/28-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←
Formatted by CommonScribe