14:43:11 RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
14:43:11 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/28-xhtml-irc
14:43:13 RRSAgent, make logs public
14:43:13 Zakim has joined #xhtml
14:43:15 Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2
14:43:15 ok, trackbot; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:43:16 Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference
14:43:16 Date: 28 January 2009
14:43:33 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0072.html
14:43:42 Chair: Roland
14:44:22 IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started
14:44:29 +??P5
14:44:41 +Roland
14:44:54 +??P12
14:45:05 zakim, ??P12 is ShaneM
14:45:05 +ShaneM; got it
14:45:06 Zakim, ??P5 is mgylling
14:45:06 +mgylling; got it
14:45:08 Zakim, ??P5 is mgylling
14:45:08 I already had ??P5 as mgylling, Roland
14:45:12 + +04670855aaaa
14:45:24 Zakim, aaaa is Tina
14:45:24 +Tina; got it
14:46:08 alessio has joined #xhtml
14:46:32 zakim, dial steven-617
14:46:32 ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:46:34 +Steven
14:47:40 Regrets: Gregory
14:47:51 scribe: Steven
14:48:38 Topic: XHTML Media types
14:48:46 Steven: It should be up any minute this afternoon
14:48:56 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-media-types/
14:49:22 +??P13
14:49:32 zakim, ??P13 is Alessio
14:49:32 +Alessio; got it
14:49:41 Topic: @lang
14:50:03 Roland: If we want that in the specs, then we would need the change before we do the transition requests
14:50:14 Sahne: I don't min
14:50:27 s/Sahne/Shane?
14:50:29 s/min/mind/
14:50:42 ... but it only really affects 1.1
14:50:58 Roland: Mobile Web want it in Basic as well
14:51:50 Shane: @lang is harmless and helpful
14:52:00 Roland: And there is support from I18N
14:52:33 Shane: We have to say something about how the two interact
14:53:00 ... but putting @lang into 1.1 invalidates the XHTML Media types doc
14:53:46 Shane: Someone from Opera complained about us minting new DOCTYPEs
14:54:15 ... because they hardwire the DTD names
14:54:30 ... I told them that we have rules for DTD names, and it ought to work
14:55:03 ... so if you serve Firefox a 1.1+RDFa doc, then character entities don't work
14:55:49 Steven: But the media type says it
14:55:54 Shane: True
14:56:11 Shane: But I am now nervous about telling people to use new DOCTYPES
14:56:30 Tina: People need character entities
14:56:43 Tina: Tricky
14:57:27 Steven: This is a bug in the browser
15:00:46 ... strictly they should recognise the DTD
15:00:57 ... if they take a shortcut
15:01:48 ... recognising a small set of hardwired DTD names is nto good enough
15:02:02 ... they should use the namespace (or something)
15:02:07 Shane: Or the media type
15:02:39 Roland: Aren't we off topic; this is a different issue to @lang
15:02:44 Shane: Yes, I ratholed
15:03:56 ... the fundamental issue isn't to authors who deliver as text/html, but application/xhtml+xml
15:04:36 ... we need to address the larger issue for 1.2
15:05:27 Roland: Anybosy opposed adding @lang to 1.1 for this transition?
15:05:34 s/bosy/body/
15:05:44 s/adding/to adding/
15:06:30 ... and Basic
15:07:04 RESOLVED: add @lang to 1.1 and Basic before transitioning
15:07:53 Steven: Should I continue with the transition of 1.0, or wait for them all to go together?
15:08:08 Shane: I can make the change really quickly
15:09:01 ... I will send out tomorrow proposed language
15:09:07 ... until Friday for comment
15:09:13 ... Transition request Monday
15:09:21 Steven: OK
15:09:29 Tina: No objections
15:09:49 TOPIC: XHTML2
15:10:05 rrsagent, make minutes
15:10:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/28-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
15:10:32 Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0072.html
15:10:43 Tina: I prefer to keep useful elements in
15:10:51 INS and DEL http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0012.html
15:13:40 Steven: The attributes are much more useful
15:15:59 ... you can't delete or insert a table row for instance
15:16:42 Roland: I think that doing this as metadata works quite well
15:16:58 ... but if people are used to ins and del, we could keep them as well
15:18:23 Shane: It is difficult to express the content models of ins and del with schema and DTD
15:18:26 q+
15:22:40 q-
15:23:21 Steven: Attributes make more possible, and in the bargain solves the problem of the messy content models
15:24:57 Roland: insertion and deletion is metadata about a paragraph for instance, not structure
15:25:09 Tina: But what about included text
15:25:20 Roland: That was my proposed compromise
15:25:28 ... only allow ins and del in text content
15:25:45 +1
15:26:02 Roland: Let's discuss this in the mail then
15:26:08 s/mail/list
15:26:43 Topic: p content model
15:28:11 Steven: I don't see what the problem is
15:28:40 ... we enlarged the content model to include what people think of as a paragraph
15:30:27 ... People sent us use cases that we agreed to support
15:30:54 ... you don't *have* to include quotations or tables in a paragraph, but you have the option
15:31:16 Tina: I'm not convinced that they are valid use cases
15:31:47 ... can we dig out some language expert who will resolve this?
15:34:25 Roland: We shouldn't legislate what the user may think of as a paragraph
15:34:33 ... the author may decide
15:35:07 Shane: At the moment you can have a p inside a p
15:38:01 ... I checked the issues case and indeed we have people asking for this
15:38:08 ... but also the reverse
15:40:54 I am now convinced by Steven's example.
15:42:24 Steven's exeample was a paragraph that said "Today I will do: (some table of stuff) then I will go home."
15:42:57 Steven: I want to be able to write "Here is an example: [[1][2][3][4]], which show sthat...."
15:43:09 I've seen many example, expecially in the public administrations sites
15:43:21 ... and I don't want to be disallowed that.
15:43:38 ... If you don't want to do that, don't do it, but please don't try to stop me doing it.
15:44:23 p content model is currently (PCDATA | Text | List | blockcode | blockquote | pre | table )*
15:44:27 Roland: Time's up
15:45:30 ... I will study the content model further
15:45:31 -ShaneM
15:45:33 -mgylling
15:45:35 -Steven
15:45:38 [Adjourn]
15:45:40 -Alessio
15:45:41 -Roland
15:46:06 bye! :)
15:46:09 alessio has left #xhtml
15:46:19 zakim, who is here?
15:46:19 On the phone I see Tina
15:46:20 On IRC I see RRSAgent, ShaneM, Roland, Tina, Steven, trackbot
15:46:25 zakim, dro ptina
15:46:25 I don't understand 'dro ptina', Steven
15:46:30 zakim, drop tine
15:46:30 sorry, Steven, I do not see a party named 'tine'
15:46:35 zakim, drop tina
15:46:35 Tina is being disconnected
15:46:36 IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended
15:46:37 Attendees were Roland, ShaneM, mgylling, +04670855aaaa, Tina, Steven, Alessio
15:46:42 rrsagent, make minutes
15:46:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/28-xhtml-minutes.html Steven