Meeting Record

edit

RDF in XHTML TaskForce

Minutes of 17 July 2008

Agenda

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Jul/0044.html

Present

Unknown Manu_Sporny

Regrets

Unknown Michael_Hausenblas

Chair

Unknown Manu_Sporny

Scribe

Unknown Ralph

IRC Log

Original

Resolutions

None.

Topics

Action Review
HTML4, HTML5, and CR plans
RDFa Best Practices
Misc

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14:46:04 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc ←

14:46:57 <msporny> zakim, this will be SW_SWD(RDFa)

Scribe problem: the name 'msporny' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown msporny: zakim, this will be SW_SWD(RDFa) ←

14:46:57 <Zakim> ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes ←

14:47:16 <msporny> Meeting: RDF in XHTML TaskForce

14:47:27 <msporny> Chair: Manu_Sporny

Scribe problem: the name 'Manu_Sporny' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

14:47:41 <msporny> rrsagent, make log public

Unknown msporny: rrsagent, make log public ←

14:47:48 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes

Unknown msporny: rrsagent, draft minutes ←

14:47:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html msporny

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html msporny ←

14:49:15 <msporny> previous http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html

Unknown msporny: previous http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html ←

14:49:30 <msporny> Regrets: Michael_Hausenblas

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14:49:35 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes

Unknown msporny: rrsagent, draft minutes ←

14:49:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html msporny

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html msporny ←

14:50:05 <msporny> Present: Manu_Sporny

Scribe problem: the name 'Manu_Sporny' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

14:51:01 <msporny> Regrets+ Ben_Adida

Scribe problem: the name 'msporny' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Manu_Sporny Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown msporny: Regrets+ Ben_Adida ←

14:51:06 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes

Unknown msporny: rrsagent, draft minutes ←

14:51:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html msporny

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html msporny ←

14:52:58 <msporny> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Jul/0044.html

14:53:01 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes

Unknown msporny: rrsagent, draft minutes ←

14:53:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html msporny

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html msporny ←

14:58:51 <msporny> Present+ Ralph_Swick

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Unknown msporny: Present+ Ralph_Swick ←

14:59:46 <msporny> Good morning, Ralph :)

Unknown msporny: Good morning, Ralph :) ←

15:00:50 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started ←

15:00:57 <Zakim> +McCarron

Zakim IRC Bot: +McCarron ←

15:02:07 <Zakim> +Ralph

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ralph ←

15:02:59 <Zakim> +??P40

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P40 ←

15:03:03 <msporny> zakim, I am ??P40

Unknown msporny: zakim, I am ??P40 ←

15:03:13 <Zakim> +msporny; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +msporny; got it ←

15:04:19 <msporny> Regrets+ Mark_Birbeck

Unknown msporny: Regrets+ Mark_Birbeck ←

15:04:27 <msporny> Regrets+ Steven_Pemberton

Unknown msporny: Regrets+ Steven_Pemberton ←

15:04:45 <markbirbeck> Regrets+ markbirbeck

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Unknown markbirbeck: Regrets+ markbirbeck ←

15:04:49 <markbirbeck> Sorry. :)

Unknown markbirbeck: Sorry. :) ←

15:05:05 <markbirbeck> I'll be on IRC for a little while, but have to leave early to get kids.

Unknown markbirbeck: I'll be on IRC for a little while, but have to leave early to get kids. ←

15:05:20 <Zakim> +JeremyCarroll

Zakim IRC Bot: +JeremyCarroll ←

15:05:22 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/products/2 CR comments

Scribe problem: the name 'Ralph' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Manu_Sporny Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Ralph: -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/products/2 CR comments ←

15:05:40 <msporny> Present+ Jeremy_Carroll

Unknown msporny: Present+ Jeremy_Carroll ←

15:05:51 <ShaneM> Have people seen this? http://www.umbel.org/

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Unknown ShaneM: Have people seen this? http://www.umbel.org/ ←

created using i/scribe: Ralph/Topic: Action Review

1. Action Review

15:06:44 <Ralph> scribe: Ralph

(Scribe set to Unknown Ralph)

15:07:08 <Ralph> rrsagent, please make record public

rrsagent, please make record public ←

15:07:39 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben to talk to Allan about CR ISSUE-122 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

ACTION: Ben to talk to Allan about CR ISSUE-122 [recorded in ACTION-15]">http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-15] ←

15:07:41 <Ralph> -- continues

-- continues ←

15:08:04 <Ralph> ACTION: Jeremy to write up TQ's contribution for impl report and wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action16]

ACTION: Jeremy to write up TQ's contribution for impl report and wiki [recorded in ACTION-16]">http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-16] ←

15:08:06 <Ralph> -- continues

-- continues ←

15:08:13 <Ralph> Jeremy: I've written the report, will post soon

Scribe problem: the name 'Jeremy' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Manu_Sporny Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Jeremy: I've written the report, will post soon ←

15:08:40 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Manu to write up current issues with information resource vs. actual resource with regard to Audio RDF vocabulary. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]

[DONE] ACTION: Manu to write up current issues with information resource vs. actual resource with regard to Audio RDF vocabulary. [recorded in ACTION-14]">http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-14] ←

15:09:14 <msporny> http://rdfa.info/wiki/uri-vs-resource-ambiguity-problem

Unknown msporny: http://rdfa.info/wiki/uri-vs-resource-ambiguity-problem ←

15:09:43 <Ralph> ACTION: Michael to rewrite and extend http://rdfa.info/wiki/Tutorials for RSS (maybe with seq) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]

ACTION: Michael to rewrite and extend http://rdfa.info/wiki/Tutorials for RSS (maybe with seq) [recorded in ACTION-08]">http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-08] ←

15:09:45 <Ralph> -- continues

-- continues ←

15:10:01 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Shane to make ISSUE-121 editorial change and report back [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

[DONE] ACTION: Shane to make ISSUE-121 editorial change and report back [recorded in ACTION-13]">http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-13] ←

15:10:18 <Ralph> ACTION: Shane respond to commentor for ISSUE-121

ACTION: Shane respond to commentor for ISSUE-121 ←

15:10:34 <Ralph> ACTION: Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

ACTION: Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [recorded in ACTION-12]">http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-12] ←

15:10:37 <Ralph> -- continues

-- continues ←

15:10:47 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]

ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C [recorded in ACTION-01]">http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-01] ←

15:10:49 <Ralph> -- continues

-- continues ←

15:11:05 <JeremyCarroll> http://www.topquadrant.com/w3c/RDFa/    is the current draft report

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Unknown JeremyCarroll: http://www.topquadrant.com/w3c/RDFa/ is the current draft report ←

15:11:07 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben to follow up with Elias on JavaScript test harness + EARL [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

ACTION: Ben to follow up with Elias on JavaScript test harness + EARL [recorded in ACTION-13]">http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-13] ←

15:11:10 <Ralph> -- continues

-- continues ←

15:11:21 <Ralph> Ralph: do we consider this important enough to keep at this point?

Unknown Ralph: do we consider this important enough to keep at this point? ←

15:11:35 <Ralph> Manu: they wanted to get it for the implementation report

Unknown Manu_Sporny: they wanted to get it for the implementation report ←

15:12:26 <Ralph> ... it was going to make Michael and Ben's life easier to create the implementation report for Javascript

... it was going to make Michael and Ben's life easier to create the implementation report for Javascript ←

15:12:30 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to mention TQ's conformance statement

Unknown JeremyCarroll: q+ to mention TQ's conformance statement ←

15:12:37 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to mention TQ's conformance statement

Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll, you wanted to mention TQ's conformance statement ←

15:12:49 <JeremyCarroll> The conformance of the RDFa input depends on the conformance of the RDFa parser being used, currently Fabien Gandon's transform. Therefore we do not submit a separate report.

Unknown JeremyCarroll: The conformance of the RDFa input depends on the conformance of the RDFa parser being used, currently Fabien Gandon's transform. Therefore we do not submit a separate report. ←

15:12:49 <JeremyCarroll> It is not clear what conformance tests we should do on the RDFa editing functionality. As is, the normal process of software maintenance should ensure that all output from the RDFa editor is legal RDFa input, with the expected triples, and most reasonable RDFa input can be produced with the editors. The autocomplete facility will currently generate qnames rather than CURIEs, since the other RDF formats currently do not use CURIEs. If and when other RDF

Unknown JeremyCarroll: It is not clear what conformance tests we should do on the RDFa editing functionality. As is, the normal process of software maintenance should ensure that all output from the RDFa editor is legal RDFa input, with the expected triples, and most reasonable RDFa input can be produced with the editors. The autocomplete facility will currently generate qnames rather than CURIEs, since the other RDF formats currently do not use CURIEs. If and when other RDF ←

15:13:10 <Ralph> Jeremy: while writing the report for TopQuadrant, I noted the following: (see above)

Unknown Jeremy: while writing the report for TopQuadrant, I noted the following: (see above) ←

15:13:39 <Ralph> ... any advice on anything better to say?

... any advice on anything better to say? ←

15:13:50 <Ralph> Shane: QNames are technically a subset of CURIEs

Scribe problem: the name 'Shane' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Manu_Sporny Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Shane: QNames are technically a subset of CURIEs ←

15:13:56 <Ralph> ... so you _are_ generating CURIEs

... so you _are_ generating CURIEs ←

15:14:26 <Ralph> Jeremy: just a question about providing an implementation report for RDFa consumers

Unknown Jeremy: just a question about providing an implementation report for RDFa consumers ←

15:15:12 <Ralph> Manu: for the implementation report, we have a set of implementations that run against the RDFa test harness

Unknown Manu_Sporny: for the implementation report, we have a set of implementations that run against the RDFa test harness ←

15:15:32 <Ralph> ... if an RDFa parser is setup correctly it can be [automatically] run against the test harness

... if an RDFa parser is setup correctly it can be [automatically] run against the test harness ←

15:15:42 <Ralph> ... so the expectation is to say whether or not you pass each test

... so the expectation is to say whether or not you pass each test ←

15:16:07 <Ralph> Jeremy: the existing tests are for RDFa parsers.  TopQuadrant integrates parsers written by others

Unknown Jeremy: the existing tests are for RDFa parsers. TopQuadrant integrates parsers written by others ←

15:16:24 <Ralph> ... for the editing functionality it's hard to know what to say

... for the editing functionality it's hard to know what to say ←

15:17:00 <Ralph> Manu: my understanding is that the implementation report planned to only cover parser tests

Unknown Manu_Sporny: my understanding is that the implementation report planned to only cover parser tests ←

15:18:46 <Ralph> Ralph: perhaps TopQuadrant could show how to use its tools to generate the test examples (or their equivalent)

Unknown Ralph: perhaps TopQuadrant could show how to use its tools to generate the test examples (or their equivalent) ←

15:18:49 <Ralph> Jeremy: nice idea

Unknown Jeremy: nice idea ←

15:19:01 <ShaneM> q+ to discuss the implementation report

Unknown ShaneM: q+ to discuss the implementation report ←

15:19:40 <Ralph> Manu: yes, would be nice to describe a full round-trip; generating then parsing RDFa

Unknown Manu_Sporny: yes, would be nice to describe a full round-trip; generating then parsing RDFa ←

15:20:35 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss the implementation report

Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to discuss the implementation report ←

15:20:56 <Ralph> Shane: in the spec we only define conformance for _parsers_

Unknown Shane: in the spec we only define conformance for _parsers_ ←

15:21:07 <Ralph> ... in the implementation report we can have sections that talk about other supporting tools

... in the implementation report we can have sections that talk about other supporting tools ←

15:21:19 <Ralph> ... so, e.g., user agents; IE, Opera, FireFox

... so, e.g., user agents; IE, Opera, FireFox ←

15:21:43 <msporny> Ralph: We should say something about SearchMonkey as well.

Unknown Ralph: We should say something about SearchMonkey as well. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown msporny ] ←

15:22:06 <msporny> Ralph: We could also point out the implementations that do a subset.

Unknown Ralph: We could also point out the implementations that do a subset. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown msporny ] ←

15:22:11 <Ralph> Ralph: yes, for example it would be good to mention SearchMonkey, even though they don't yet support all of RDFa

Unknown Ralph: yes, for example it would be good to mention SearchMonkey, even though they don't yet support all of RDFa ←

15:23:00 <Ralph> Shane: it's also good to document that browsers don't break when they're fed RDFa

Unknown Shane: it's also good to document that browsers don't break when they're fed RDFa ←

15:23:15 <Ralph> ... though we don't actually have any user agent conformance clauses

... though we don't actually have any user agent conformance clauses ←

15:23:29 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Manu write haudio examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]

[DONE] ACTION: Manu write haudio examples for wiki [recorded in ACTION-06]">http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-06] ←

15:23:47 <Ralph> Manu: these are 1-1 mappable to the microformat vocabulary

Unknown Manu_Sporny: these are 1-1 mappable to the microformat vocabulary ←

15:24:11 <Ralph> ... Toby Inkster has written a tool to intersperce RDFa in haudio microformat

... Toby Inkster has written a tool to intersperce RDFa in haudio microformat ←

15:24:21 <Ralph> ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]

ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in ACTION-03]">http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-03] ←

15:24:25 <Ralph> -- continues

-- continues ←

15:24:35 <Ralph> ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in ACTION-12]">http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-12] ←

15:24:36 <Ralph> -- continues

-- continues ←

15:24:45 <Ralph> ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]

ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in ACTION-07]">http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-07] ←

15:24:48 <Ralph> -- continues

-- continues ←

15:25:00 <Ralph> ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in ACTION-12]">http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-12] ←

15:25:01 <Ralph> -- continues

-- continues ←

15:25:29 <Ralph> Ralph: I hand-wrote a bunch of comments on that last week, never got to enter them :(

Unknown Ralph: I hand-wrote a bunch of comments on that last week, never got to enter them :( ←

15:25:38 <Ralph> ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in ACTION-11]">http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-11] ←

15:25:39 <Ralph> -- continues

-- continues ←

15:25:59 <ShaneM> q+ to ask about RDF and hVideo

Unknown ShaneM: q+ to ask about RDF and hVideo ←

15:26:06 <Ralph> Manu: there's been a lot of work in the SIOC vocabulary that has to do with posts and the authors of posts

Unknown Manu_Sporny: there's been a lot of work in the SIOC vocabulary that has to do with posts and the authors of posts ←

15:26:34 <Ralph> ... SIOC is meant for bloggers and folks who post news

... SIOC is meant for bloggers and folks who post news ←

15:27:11 <Ralph> Shane: regarding haudio, Manu mentioned generalized media RDF.  Is there a video RDF?

Unknown Shane: regarding haudio, Manu mentioned generalized media RDF. Is there a video RDF? ←

15:27:28 <Ralph> Manu: yes, there's a base vocabulary for media on which the audio and video vocabularies build

Unknown Manu_Sporny: yes, there's a base vocabulary for media on which the audio and video vocabularies build ←

15:27:37 <Ralph> ... media builds off of Dublin Core

... media builds off of Dublin Core ←

15:28:13 <Ralph> Shane: for example, how might one annotate IMDB with RDFa

Unknown Shane: for example, how might one annotate IMDB with RDFa ←

15:28:35 <Ralph> Manu: this vocabulary is intended to help with that; marking up television episodes, all the actors, grips, etc.

Unknown Manu_Sporny: this vocabulary is intended to help with that; marking up television episodes, all the actors, grips, etc. ←

15:28:56 <Ralph> ... we have 80-85% coverage of the use cases we've found so far

... we have 80-85% coverage of the use cases we've found so far ←

15:29:08 <Ralph> ... we've looked at a large number of Web sites that publish this sort of data

... we've looked at a large number of Web sites that publish this sort of data ←

15:29:26 <Ralph> ... ties in with BBC comments on non-accessibility of microformats data, esp. the date format

... ties in with BBC comments on non-accessibility of microformats data, esp. the date format ←

15:30:12 <Ralph> ... the accessibility problem is that screen readers attempt to read out data that's only intended for the machines

... the accessibility problem is that screen readers attempt to read out data that's only intended for the machines ←

15:30:30 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask about RDF and hVideo

Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to ask about RDF and hVideo ←

15:31:04 <Ralph> Jeremy: who's the BBC contact?

Unknown Jeremy: who's the BBC contact? ←

15:31:26 <msporny> I've been chatting with Michael Smethurst at the BBC about Audio/Video/Media RDFa

Unknown msporny: I've been chatting with Michael Smethurst at the BBC about Audio/Video/Media RDFa ←

15:33:22 <Ralph> Topic: HTML4, HTML5, and CR plans

2. HTML4, HTML5, and CR plans

15:34:02 <Ralph> Manu: we've been seeing more traffic on the lists noting that it's nice to have XHTML support but what about HTML4 and HTML5

Unknown Manu_Sporny: we've been seeing more traffic on the lists noting that it's nice to have XHTML support but what about HTML4 and HTML5 ←

15:34:18 <Ralph> ... we've pointed out that the markup won't break HTML4/5 tools

... we've pointed out that the markup won't break HTML4/5 tools ←

15:34:30 <Ralph> ... but the users want validation

... but the users want validation ←

15:35:15 <msporny> Ralph: Well, HTML4 doesn't have a working group

Unknown Ralph: Well, HTML4 doesn't have a working group [ Scribe Assist by Unknown msporny ] ←

15:35:29 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to note this issue should go through to ac review

Unknown JeremyCarroll: q+ to note this issue should go through to ac review ←

15:35:32 <msporny> Ralph: HTML5 has it in their charter to support RDFa plus some others

Unknown Ralph: HTML5 has it in their charter to support extensibility for RDFa plus some others [ Scribe Assist by Unknown msporny ] ←

15:35:44 <Ralph> s/support/support extensibility for

15:36:28 <Ralph> Jeremy: this issue of the more extensive ambition of the RDFa folk won't go away

Unknown Jeremy: this issue of the more extensive ambition of the RDFa folk won't go away ←

15:36:39 <Ralph> ... we do want RDFa used with HTML4

... we do want RDFa used with HTML4 ←

15:37:14 <Ralph> ... the conversations on the mailing list show that some just want to get the job done while others are concerned about conformance

... the conversations on the mailing list show that some just want to get the job done while others are concerned about conformance ←

15:37:38 <Ralph> ... I think we have to acknowledge that the discussion continues though we've made a particular choice and it's the right one

... I think we have to acknowledge that the discussion continues though we've made a particular choice and it's the right one ←

15:37:56 <Ralph> ... we've specified what can be specified correctly while acknowledging that some will use it with HTML4

... we've specified what can be specified correctly while acknowledging that some will use it with HTML4 ←

15:38:12 <Ralph> ... the tone of the primer does not rule out RDFa+HTML4 even though we can't specify it

... the tone of the primer does not rule out RDFa+HTML4 even though we can't specify it ←

15:38:14 <ShaneM> q+ to discuss how to define ajn HTML4 profile

Unknown ShaneM: q+ to discuss how to define ajn HTML4 profile ←

15:38:26 <Ralph> ... we know that _in practice_ RDFa+HTML4 is usable even though it won't validate

... we know that _in practice_ RDFa+HTML4 is usable even though it won't validate ←

15:38:43 <Ralph> Manu: could we create something that would work with the W3C validator?

Unknown Manu_Sporny: could we create something that would work with the W3C validator? ←

15:39:00 <Ralph> Shane: the W3C validator uses NSGMLS through a perl interface (opensp)

Unknown Shane: the W3C validator uses NSGMLS through a perl interface (opensp) ←

15:39:27 <Ralph> ... opensp in SGML mode

... opensp in SGML mode ←

15:39:34 <Ralph> ... validating a document against a DTD

... validating a document against a DTD ←

15:39:45 <Ralph> ... it will do this for any DTD that it is aware of

... it will do this for any DTD that it is aware of ←

15:40:06 <Ralph> Manu: could we create a DTD for RDFa+HTML4?

Unknown Manu_Sporny: could we create a DTD for RDFa+HTML4? ←

15:40:24 <Ralph> Shane: SGML mode does not understand @xmlns

Unknown Shane: SGML mode does not understand @xmlns ←

15:40:53 <Ralph> ... so we'd need a different way to define prefixes or a way to persuade the validator to ignore @xmlns errors in certain types of documents

... so we'd need a different way to define prefixes or a way to persuade the validator to ignore @xmlns errors in certain types of documents ←

15:42:02 <Ralph> Ralph: we don't actually have a charter to do anything except XHTML

Unknown Ralph: we don't actually have a charter to do anything except XHTML ←

15:42:31 <Ralph> ... so we're on weak ground to ask for any changes in the validator

... so we're on weak ground to ask for any changes in the validator ←

15:43:03 <Ralph> Shane: what would be the best way for us to support RDFa in an HTML4 environment?  Does it make sense to push @xmlns into this environment or should we create another prefixing mechanism?

Unknown Shane: what would be the best way for us to support RDFa in an HTML4 environment? Does it make sense to push @xmlns into this environment or should we create another prefixing mechanism? ←

15:43:12 <Ralph> Manu: it would be really nice to not have to change anything

Unknown Manu_Sporny: it would be really nice to not have to change anything ←

15:43:18 <JeremyCarroll> q+

Unknown JeremyCarroll: q+ ←

15:44:15 <Ralph> Manu: or add a flag to parsers indicating whether they're processing HTML4/5 and find a different attribute than @xmlns

Unknown Manu_Sporny: or add a flag to parsers indicating whether they're processing HTML4/5 and find a different attribute than @xmlns ←

15:44:19 <markbirbeck> Hey guys...really sorry I'm not there. However, I think the easiest way to get out of the @xmlns bind is via CURIEs, and not RDFa.

Unknown markbirbeck: Hey guys...really sorry I'm not there. However, I think the easiest way to get out of the @xmlns bind is via CURIEs, and not RDFa. ←

15:44:23 <Ralph> ... everything other than @xmlns maps cleanly

... everything other than @xmlns maps cleanly ←

15:44:34 <Ralph> Shane: yes, everything else works fine

Unknown Shane: yes, everything else works fine ←

15:44:38 <markbirbeck> Will have to explain more either next week, or on the list.

Unknown markbirbeck: Will have to explain more either next week, or on the list. ←

15:44:46 <Ralph> Jeremy: how many actual HTML4 tools will have a problem with RDfa?

Unknown Jeremy: how many actual HTML4 tools will have a problem with RDfa? ←

15:44:55 <Ralph> ... the validator doesn't matter in the big picture

... the validator doesn't matter in the big picture ←

15:44:57 <markbirbeck> (Unless I work on a strawman with Shane....)

Unknown markbirbeck: (Unless I work on a strawman with Shane....) ←

15:45:05 <Ralph> Manu: the validators matter for adoption

Unknown Manu_Sporny: the validators matter for adoption ←

15:45:16 <ShaneM> I like the idea of @ns

Unknown ShaneM: I like the idea of @ns ←

15:45:27 <Ralph> ... authors don't want to hear complaints from their bosses about documents that don't validate

... authors don't want to hear complaints from their bosses about documents that don't validate ←

15:45:37 <Ralph> Jeremy: so just ask the validator to ignore XML namespaces

Unknown Jeremy: so just ask the validator to ignore XML namespaces ←

15:45:46 <Ralph> Shane: I think there is already a control for this

Unknown Shane: I think there is already a control for this ←

15:46:07 <Ralph> ... when it's validating in XML mode via a DTD it has to ignore namespace errors

... when it's validating in XML mode via a DTD it has to ignore namespace errors ←

15:46:14 <msporny> Mark - it would be really great to hear your thoughts on this (on list, or via the wiki)

Unknown msporny: Mark - it would be really great to hear your thoughts on this (on list, or via the wiki) ←

15:46:15 <ShaneM> @ns="prefix URI prefix2 URI..."

Unknown ShaneM: @ns="prefix URI prefix2 URI..." ←

15:46:34 <Ralph> Shane: I already have the code to patch the W3C validator to do this

Unknown Shane: I already have the code to patch the W3C validator to do this ←

15:46:45 <Ralph> ... but other authoring tools also have 'validate me' buttons

... but other authoring tools also have 'validate me' buttons ←

15:46:55 <Ralph> ... we'd want those other validators to also work

... we'd want those other validators to also work ←

15:47:13 <markbirbeck> Manu...really sorry for absence. Speak to you all soon...gotta go. :)

Unknown markbirbeck: Manu...really sorry for absence. Speak to you all soon...gotta go. :) ←

15:47:15 <Ralph> ... but sure, we can tell people it's OK to put RDFa in HTML

... but sure, we can tell people it's OK to put RDFa in HTML ←

15:47:41 <ShaneM> ack sh

Unknown ShaneM: ack sh ←

15:47:41 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss how to define ajn HTML4 profile

Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to discuss how to define ajn HTML4 profile ←

15:48:02 <Ralph> Manu: we can't say there's backing from any W3C process but we can point to a starting place

Unknown Manu_Sporny: we can't say there's backing from any W3C process but we can point to a starting place ←

15:48:04 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to note this issue should go through to ac review and to

Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll, you wanted to note this issue should go through to ac review and to ←

15:49:22 <ShaneM> q+ to discuss html5 and namespaces

Unknown ShaneM: q+ to discuss html5 and namespaces ←

15:49:44 <msporny> q+

Unknown msporny: q+ ←

15:49:56 <msporny> ack shaneM

Unknown msporny: ack shaneM ←

15:49:56 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss html5 and namespaces

Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to discuss html5 and namespaces ←

15:50:18 <Ralph> Ralph: I think the HTML5 spec will have to address something like namespaces

Unknown Ralph: I think the HTML5 spec will have to address something like namespaces ←

15:50:29 <Ralph> ... we should not get out ahead of that

... we should not get out ahead of that ←

15:50:37 <Ralph> ... whether they accept @xmlns or not, we need to wait

... whether they accept @xmlns or not, we need to wait ←

15:50:50 <Ralph> Shane: I disgree; we've overloaded @xmlns and that's a mistake

Unknown Shane: I disgree; we've overloaded @xmlns and that's a mistake ←

15:51:09 <Ralph> ... it's a convenience but in the real world @xmlns is not the way to extend grammars

... it's a convenience but in the real world @xmlns is not the way to extend grammars ←

15:51:27 <msporny> ack msporny

Unknown msporny: ack msporny ←

15:51:30 <Ralph> ... if HTML5 does not define @xmlns we could still do something else and HTML5 wouldn't care

... if HTML5 does not define @xmlns we could still do something else and HTML5 wouldn't care ←

15:51:50 <Ralph> ... vocabulary extention needs something other than XML namespaces

... vocabulary extention needs something other than XML namespaces ←

15:52:25 <Ralph> Manu: the issue we're up against is how to stuff this into validators

Unknown Manu_Sporny: the issue we're up against is how to stuff this into validators ←

15:52:39 <Ralph> Shane: I like the @ns= idea

Unknown Shane: I like the @ns= idea ←

15:53:40 <Ralph> Manu: it would be nice to have something that shows people how to put RDFa into HTML4/5 and get it validated

Unknown Manu_Sporny: it would be nice to have something that shows people how to put RDFa into HTML4/5 and get it validated ←

15:53:45 <Ralph> ... would the W3C object?

... would the W3C object? ←

15:53:56 <Ralph> Ralph: no one moderates what we put in our wiki :)

Unknown Ralph: no one moderates what we put in our wiki :) ←

15:54:06 <Ralph> Topic: RDFa Best Practices

3. RDFa Best Practices

15:54:27 <Ralph> Manu: it's becoming evident that there are right ways and wrong ways to use RDFa vocabularies

Unknown Manu_Sporny: it's becoming evident that there are right ways and wrong ways to use RDFa vocabularies ←

15:54:57 <Ralph> ... for example, I wasn't aware that the Dublin Core vocabulary is now a legacy vocabulary and we should really be using DC Terms

... for example, I wasn't aware that the Dublin Core vocabulary is now a legacy vocabulary and we should really be using DC Terms ←

15:55:10 <Ralph> ... would be nice to have a tool that reminds people about current best practices

... would be nice to have a tool that reminds people about current best practices ←

15:55:21 <Ralph> ... like a lint for RDFa

... like a lint for RDFa ←

15:55:37 <Ralph> ... suggestions for improving markup or flagging mistakes

... suggestions for improving markup or flagging mistakes ←

15:55:38 <ShaneM> q+ about lint for rdfa/xhtml+rdfa

Unknown ShaneM: q+ about lint for rdfa/xhtml+rdfa ←

15:55:49 <ShaneM> q+ to discuss lint for rdfa/xhtml+rdfa

Unknown ShaneM: q+ to discuss lint for rdfa/xhtml+rdfa ←

15:55:55 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss lint for rdfa/xhtml+rdfa

Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to discuss lint for rdfa/xhtml+rdfa ←

15:56:13 <Ralph> Shane: there's a validator side-project that has a framework for doing this sort of thing

Unknown Shane: there's a validator side-project that has a framework for doing this sort of thing ←

15:56:28 <Ralph> ... I'm certain that Olivier would welcome our help to do this

... I'm certain that Olivier would welcome our help to do this ←

15:56:33 <Ralph> ... I'll even volunteer

... I'll even volunteer ←

15:56:45 <Ralph> ... the tricky part will be deciding the rules

... the tricky part will be deciding the rules ←

15:56:56 <Ralph> ... the tool is very good about suggesting how you should have done X or Y

... the tool is very good about suggesting how you should have done X or Y ←

15:57:22 <Ralph> ... it was written to support the Appendix C validation of HTML

... it was written to support the Appendix C validation of HTML ←

15:57:46 <Ralph> Manu: first thing is to come up with some best practices

Unknown Manu_Sporny: first thing is to come up with some best practices ←

15:57:49 <Ralph> ... document these in the wiki

... document these in the wiki ←

15:58:03 <Ralph> ... when we get 10 or 15 we could roll them into the tool

... when we get 10 or 15 we could roll them into the tool ←

15:58:16 <msporny> ACTION: Start Best Practices Section on the rdfa.info wiki

ACTION: Manu: Start Best Practices Section on the rdfa.info wiki ←

15:58:20 <Ralph> Shane: makes sense

Unknown Shane: makes sense ←

15:58:28 <Ralph> s/Start/Manu: Start

15:59:36 <Ralph> Topic: Misc

4. Misc

15:59:53 <Ralph> Shane: I'm especially interested in feedback on -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Jul/0048.html "Re: RDFa Primer comment"

Unknown Shane: I'm especially interested in feedback on -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Jul/0048.html "Re: RDFa Primer comment" ←

16:00:06 <Ralph> ... we need to have a consistent message from this Task Force

... we need to have a consistent message from this Task Force ←

16:00:11 <Ralph> Manu: agree

Unknown Manu_Sporny: agree ←

16:00:23 <Ralph> ... and we'll have to do more work on HTML4/5 before saying anything

... and we'll have to do more work on HTML4/5 before saying anything ←

16:00:28 <Ralph> [adjourned]

[adjourned] ←

16:00:32 <Zakim> -McCarron

Zakim IRC Bot: -McCarron ←

16:00:36 <Zakim> -msporny

Zakim IRC Bot: -msporny ←

16:00:42 <Zakim> -JeremyCarroll

Zakim IRC Bot: -JeremyCarroll ←

16:00:43 <Zakim> -Ralph

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ralph ←

16:00:43 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended ←

16:00:44 <Zakim> Attendees were McCarron, Ralph, msporny, JeremyCarroll

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were McCarron, Ralph, msporny, JeremyCarroll ←

16:00:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph ←

16:01:22 <Ralph> i/scribe: Ralph/Topic: Action Review

16:01:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph ←

16:02:09 <Ralph> zakim, bye

zakim, bye ←

16:02:11 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye

rrsagent, bye ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent> I see 13 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-actions.rdf :

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 13 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-actions.rdf : ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to talk to Allan about CR ISSUE-122 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [1]

ACTION: Ben to talk to Allan about CR ISSUE-122 [recorded in ACTION-15]">http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-15] [1] ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-07-39

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-07-39 ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jeremy to write up TQ's contribution for impl report and wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action16] [2]

ACTION: Jeremy to write up TQ's contribution for impl report and wiki [recorded in ACTION-16]">http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-16] [2] ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-08-04

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-08-04 ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to rewrite and extend http://rdfa.info/wiki/Tutorials for RSS (maybe with seq) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action08] [3]

ACTION: Michael to rewrite and extend http://rdfa.info/wiki/Tutorials for RSS (maybe with seq) [recorded in ACTION-08]">http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-08] [3] ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-09-43

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-09-43 ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane respond to commentor for ISSUE-121 [4]

ACTION: Shane respond to commentor for ISSUE-121 [4] ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-10-18

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-10-18 ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [5]

ACTION: Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [recorded in ACTION-12]">http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-12] [5] ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-10-34

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-10-34 ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01] [6]

ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C [recorded in ACTION-01]">http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-01] [6] ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-10-47

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-10-47 ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to follow up with Elias on JavaScript test harness + EARL [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] [7]

ACTION: Ben to follow up with Elias on JavaScript test harness + EARL [recorded in ACTION-13]">http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-13] [7] ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-11-07

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-11-07 ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] [8]

ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in ACTION-03]">http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-03] [8] ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-24-21

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16:02:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [9]

ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in ACTION-12]">http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-12] [9] ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-24-35

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16:02:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] [10]

ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in ACTION-07]">http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-07] [10] ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-24-45

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-24-45 ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [11]

ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in ACTION-12]">http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-12] [11] ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-25-00

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-25-00 ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [12]

ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in ACTION-11]">http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-11] [12] ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-25-38

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-25-38 ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Start Best Practices Section on the rdfa.info wiki [13]

ACTION: Start Best Practices Section on the rdfa.info wiki [13] ←

16:02:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-58-16

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