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14:27:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-irc ←
14:27:30 <Steven> zakim, this will be rdfa
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Unknown Steven: zakim, this will be rdfa ←
14:27:30 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 33 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 33 minutes ←
14:27:41 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
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Unknown Steven: rrsagent, make log public ←
14:28:10 <Steven> I have to pick up the kids, so may be marginally late
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Unknown Steven: I have to pick up the kids, so may be marginally late ←
15:00:59 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
(No events recorded for 32 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started ←
15:01:05 <Ralph> Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML Task Force
15:01:07 <Zakim> +ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←
15:01:44 <Zakim> +Ralph
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ralph ←
15:02:07 <Ralph> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Apr/0026.html
15:02:23 <Steven_> zakim, dial steven-617
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Unknown Steven_: zakim, dial steven-617 ←
15:02:23 <Zakim> ok, Steven_; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven_; the call is being made ←
15:02:24 <Zakim> +Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←
15:02:24 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2008-03-27
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Unknown Ralph: -> http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2008-03-27 ←
15:03:35 <Zakim> + +1.610.804.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.610.804.aaaa ←
15:03:41 <Zakim> +??P9
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P9 ←
15:03:48 <msporny> zakim, I am ??P9
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Unknown msporny: zakim, I am ??P9 ←
15:03:48 <Zakim> +msporny; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +msporny; got it ←
15:04:23 <Zakim> - +1.610.804.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.610.804.aaaa ←
15:06:36 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ben_Adida ←
15:06:49 <Ralph> Chair: Ben
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15:06:59 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
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Unknown markbirbeck: zakim, code? ←
15:06:59 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck ←
15:07:44 <Zakim> +markbirbeck
Zakim IRC Bot: +markbirbeck ←
15:07:54 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose markbirbeck
Zakim IRC Bot: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose markbirbeck ←
created using i/scribe: Ralph/Topic: Action Review
15:08:03 <Ralph> scribe: Ralph
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(Scribe set to Unknown Ralph)
15:10:11 <Steven_> +1
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Unknown Steven_: +1 ←
15:10:36 <Ralph> Ben: propose not to discuss TAG's feedback on CURIEs here in this telecon
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Unknown Ben: propose not to discuss TAG's feedback on CURIEs here in this telecon ←
15:11:01 <Steven> test
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Unknown Steven: test ←
15:11:04 <Ralph> ... TAG's feedback is directed to XHTML2 WG and not RDFa
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... TAG's feedback is directed to XHTML2 WG and not RDFa ←
15:11:16 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben and Ralph to review response to Christian Hoertnagl. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
ACTION: Ben and Ralph to review response to Christian Hoertnagl. [recorded in ACTION-07]">http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-07] ←
15:11:20 <Ralph> -- continues
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-- continues ←
15:11:43 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Ben to ask Shane about DOCTYPE and validation. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
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[DONE] ACTION: Ben to ask Shane about DOCTYPE and validation. [recorded in ACTION-10]">http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-10] ←
15:12:02 <Ralph> Ben: we were talking about changing 'SHOULD have a DOCTYPE' to 'MAY have a DOCTYPE'
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Unknown Ben: we were talking about changing 'SHOULD have a DOCTYPE' to 'MAY have a DOCTYPE' ←
15:12:10 <Steven> +1
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Unknown Steven: +1 ←
15:12:12 <Steven> Yes
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Unknown Steven: Yes ←
15:12:17 <Ralph> ... Shane made the point that 'SHOULD' is already optional, so why change anything?
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... Shane made the point that 'SHOULD' is already optional, so why change anything? ←
15:12:27 <Ralph> Manu: SHOULD is stronger than MAY
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Unknown Manu: SHOULD is stronger than MAY ←
15:12:41 <Ralph> ... it says "you really really should do this unless you have a good reason not to'
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... it says "you really really should do this unless you have a good reason not to' ←
15:12:58 <Ralph> Shane: we're saying that if you want to validate your document you SHOULD have a DOCTYPE
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Unknown Shane: we're saying that if you want to validate your document you SHOULD have a DOCTYPE ←
15:13:11 <Steven> But don't we use the DOCTYPE for follow your nose?
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Unknown Steven: But don't we use the DOCTYPE for follow your nose? ←
15:13:13 <Ralph> Ben: what if in the next year the W3C validater no longer requires DOCTYPE?
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Unknown Ben: what if in the next year the W3C validater no longer requires DOCTYPE? ←
15:13:23 <Ralph> ... do we make our spec dependent on the current state of validation?
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... do we make our spec dependent on the current state of validation? ←
15:13:55 <Steven> How about: SHOULD use a DOCTYPE, but if not then version="XHTML+RDFa 1.0"
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Unknown Steven: How about: SHOULD use a DOCTYPE, but if not then version="XHTML+RDFa 1.0" ←
15:14:05 <Ralph> Mark: SHOULD has wiggle room
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Unknown Mark: SHOULD has wiggle room ←
15:14:33 <Ralph> Shane: MAY is a very strange thing to say when you're talking about document conformance
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Unknown Shane: MAY is a very strange thing to say when you're talking about document conformance ←
15:14:39 <Ralph> ... MAY is used to talk about implementation conformance
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... MAY is used to talk about implementation conformance ←
15:14:53 <Ralph> Ben: I think we should leave it as SHOULD
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Unknown Ben: I think we should leave it as SHOULD ←
15:15:09 <Ralph> ... and possibly add a note commenting about validation
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... and possibly add a note commenting about validation ←
15:15:19 <Steven> I am happy with either
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Unknown Steven: I am happy with either ←
15:15:25 <Ralph> Ralph: what does XHTML1 say about DOCTYPE?
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Unknown Ralph: what does XHTML1 say about DOCTYPE? ←
15:15:55 <Ralph> Shane: DOCTYPE is required in XHTML 1.1 and SHOULD in XHTML 1.1 2nd edition
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Unknown Shane: DOCTYPE is required in XHTML 1.1 and SHOULD in XHTML 1.1 2nd edition ←
15:16:12 <Ralph> Ben: so we shouldn't weaken the requirements from the host language
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Unknown Ben: so we shouldn't weaken the requirements from the host language ←
15:16:19 <Ralph> ... our response to Tim can point to the host language
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... our response to Tim can point to the host language ←
15:16:24 <msporny> +1 for SHOULD
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Unknown msporny: +1 for SHOULD ←
15:17:34 <Steven> I wish there were an alternative for defining character entities
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Unknown Steven: I wish there were an alternative for defining character entities ←
15:17:35 <benadida> PROPOSE: that we respond to TimBL regarding DOCTYPE as follows 'SHOULD leaves enough wiggle room for when validation no longer requires DOCTYPE'
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Unknown PROPOSE: that we respond to TimBL regarding DOCTYPE as follows 'SHOULD leaves enough wiggle room for when validation no longer requires DOCTYPE' [ Scribe Assist by Unknown benadida ] ←
15:17:39 <ShaneM> And also point out that "SHOULD" is optional already.
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Unknown ShaneM: And also point out that "SHOULD" is optional already. ←
15:17:52 <msporny> +1
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Unknown msporny: +1 ←
15:18:20 <Ralph> Steven: do we want to say that if there is no DOCTYPE then there must be @version="XHTML+RDFa"
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Unknown Steven: do we want to say that if there is no DOCTYPE then there must be @version="XHTML+RDFa" ←
15:18:44 <Ralph> Ralph: no. I thought we agreed last week that we'd update the namespace document
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Unknown Ralph: no. I thought we agreed last week that we'd update the namespace document ←
15:19:02 <Ralph> Shane: no objection to updating the namespace document but it does nothing for announcement
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Unknown Shane: no objection to updating the namespace document but it does nothing for announcement ←
15:19:30 <Ralph> ... what does something for announcement is if we agree that all XHTML languages have these new attributes
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... what does something for announcement is if we agree that all XHTML languages have these new attributes ←
15:20:08 <Ralph> ... and that has impact outside the XHTML2 WG
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... and that has impact outside the XHTML2 WG ←
15:20:34 <Ralph> Steven: I think we're capable of changing the namespace document
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Unknown Steven: I think we're capable of changing the namespace document ←
15:20:51 <Ralph> ... we could even turn the namespace document into an RDFa document
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... we could even turn the namespace document into an RDFa document ←
15:21:25 <benadida> PROPOSE: that we respond to TimBL regarding DOCTYPE as follows 'SHOULD leaves enough wiggle room for when validation no longer requires DOCTYPE', that we *not* require HTML version=, and that we update the XHTML namespace document accordingly.
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Unknown PROPOSE: that we respond to TimBL regarding DOCTYPE as follows 'SHOULD leaves enough wiggle room for when validation no longer requires DOCTYPE', that we *not* require HTML version=, and that we update the XHTML namespace document accordingly. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown benadida ] ←
15:21:37 <Steven> +1
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Unknown Steven: +1 ←
15:22:21 <benadida> RESOLVED: that we respond to TimBL regarding DOCTYPE as follows 'SHOULD leaves enough wiggle room for when validation no longer requires DOCTYPE', that we *not* require HTML version=, and that we update the XHTML namespace document accordingly.
RESOLVED: that we respond to TimBL regarding DOCTYPE as follows 'SHOULD leaves enough wiggle room for when validation no longer requires DOCTYPE', that we *not* require HTML version=, and that we update the XHTML namespace document accordingly. ←
15:22:41 <Steven> rrsagent,make minutes
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Unknown Steven: rrsagent,make minutes ←
15:22:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-minutes.html Steven ←
15:22:45 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Manu correct test 11 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
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[DONE] ACTION: Manu correct test 11 [recorded in ACTION-12]">http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-12] ←
15:23:02 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Mark to double check the _:a bnode notation in RDFa syntax [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
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[DONE] ACTION: Mark to double check the _:a bnode notation in RDFa syntax [recorded in ACTION-11]">http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-11] ←
15:23:11 <Ralph> Mark: done during last week's call
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Unknown Mark: done during last week's call ←
15:23:17 <Steven> s/RESOLVED/RESOLUTION/
15:23:22 <Steven> rrsagent,make mintes
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Unknown Steven: rrsagent,make mintes ←
15:23:22 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make mintes', Steven. Try /msg RRSAgent help
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I'm logging. I don't understand 'make mintes', Steven. Try /msg RRSAgent help ←
15:23:25 <Ralph> ... Shane noted that it was not mentioned anywhere but then we found it
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... Shane noted that it was not mentioned anywhere but then we found it ←
15:23:28 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
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Unknown Steven: rrsagent, make minutes ←
15:23:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-minutes.html Steven ←
15:23:43 <Ralph> Shane: it's mentioned in an informative section and should be moved up to the normative processing rules
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Unknown Shane: it's mentioned in an informative section and should be moved up to the normative processing rules ←
15:23:54 <Ralph> Mark: you have to piece together information from 3 parts
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Unknown Mark: you have to piece together information from 3 parts ←
15:24:19 <Ralph> RESOLVED: we respond to TimBL regarding DOCTYPE as follows 'SHOULD leaves enough wiggle room for when validation no longer requires DOCTYPE', that we *not* require HTML version=, and that we update the XHTML namespace document accordingly.
RESOLVED: we respond to TimBL regarding DOCTYPE as follows 'SHOULD leaves enough wiggle room for when validation no longer requires DOCTYPE', that we *not* require HTML version=, and that we update the XHTML namespace document accordingly. ←
15:24:27 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
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Unknown Steven: rrsagent, make minutes ←
15:24:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-minutes.html Steven ←
15:25:08 <benadida> ACTION: Mark to move _:a bnode notation to normative section
ACTION: Mark to move _:a bnode notation to normative section ←
15:25:31 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C [recorded in ACTION-01]">http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-01] ←
15:25:33 <Ralph> -- continues
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-- continues ←
15:25:56 <Ralph> Ben: Fabien did update his transform but it's not yet under W3C software license on the W3C site
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Unknown Ben: Fabien did update his transform but it's not yet under W3C software license on the W3C site ←
15:26:07 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben to follow up on media type discussion with Steven, Ralph, and TAG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
ACTION: Ben to follow up on media type discussion with Steven, Ralph, and TAG [recorded in ACTION-08]">http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-08] ←
15:26:09 <Ralph> -- continues
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-- continues ←
15:27:04 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben to respond to issue 87 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
ACTION: Ben to respond to ISSUE-87 [recorded in ACTION-09]">http://www.w3.org/2008/02/28-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-09] ←
15:27:05 <Ralph> -- continues
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-- continues ←
15:27:16 <Ralph> ACTION: Manu to enable EARL output in RDFa Test Harness [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
ACTION: Manu to enable EARL output in RDFa Test Harness [recorded in ACTION-13]">http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-13] ←
15:27:29 <Ralph> -- continues
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-- continues ←
15:27:41 <Ralph> Manu: almost done. I have to respond to some comments from DanC
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Unknown Manu: almost done. I have to respond to some comments from DanC ←
15:28:02 <Ralph> ACTION: Mark/Shane include issue 89 correction in Changes section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
ACTION: Mark/Shane include ISSUE-89 correction in Changes section [recorded in ACTION-11]">http://www.w3.org/2008/03/06-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-11] ←
15:28:04 <Ralph> -- continues
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-- continues ←
15:28:09 <Ralph> ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in ACTION-12]">http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-12] ←
15:28:10 <Ralph> -- continues
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-- continues ←
15:28:57 <Ralph> i/scribe: ralph/Topic: Action Review
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i/scribe: ralph/Topic: Action Review (warning: replacement failed) ←
15:29:35 <Ralph> Topic: ISSUE-102: use a name other than @instanceof
15:29:46 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/102 issue 102
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-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/102 ISSUE-102 ←
15:29:51 <benadida> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Mar/0211.html
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Unknown benadida: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Mar/0211.html ←
15:30:43 <Ralph> Ben: poll around the table?
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Unknown Ben: poll around the table? ←
15:31:04 <Ralph> Steven: I'm in favor of a new name. I posted a list of ~50. I didn't propose a favorite
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Unknown Steven: I'm in favor of a new name. I posted a list of ~50. I didn't propose a favorite ←
15:31:39 <Ralph> Mark: [each of us] needs to argue in favor of one position
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Unknown Mark: [each of us] needs to argue in favor of one position ←
15:31:52 <Ralph> Steven: I'd be happy with @kind
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Unknown Steven: I'd be happy with @kind ←
15:32:07 <Ralph> Ben: from mail, @kind and @typeof seem to be bubbling up high
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Unknown Ben: from mail, @kind and @typeof seem to be bubbling up high ←
15:32:53 <Ralph> Steven: @typeof has the same prior use issues that @instanceof had
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Unknown Steven: @typeof has the same prior use issues that @instanceof had ←
15:33:15 <Ralph> Mark: lots of suggestions have been made and each has had problems.
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Unknown Mark: lots of suggestions have been made and each has had problems. ←
15:33:37 <Ralph> ... I think @instanceof is fine
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... I think @instanceof is fine ←
15:34:19 <Ralph> ... the only alternative that works for me is @typeof
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... the only alternative that works for me is @typeof ←
15:35:57 <Ralph> ... people know what "type" means even if they're not fully conversant in set theory
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... people know what "type" means even if they're not fully conversant in set theory ←
15:36:01 <Ralph> Manu: @typeof
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Unknown Manu: @typeof ←
15:36:26 <Ralph> ... I consider how easy it is to explain to a normal Web developer
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... I consider how easy it is to explain to a normal Web developer ←
15:36:43 <Ralph> ... I've never really liked @instanceof
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... I've never really liked @instanceof ←
15:37:30 <Steven> <p contains="cal:Vevent">
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Unknown Steven: <p contains="cal:Vevent"> ←
15:38:17 <Steven> q+
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Unknown Steven: q+ ←
15:38:31 <Ralph> Ralph: @typeof feels like the wrong direction to me
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Unknown Ralph: @typeof feels like the wrong direction to me ←
15:39:00 <Ralph> ... but I don't feel strongly between @instanceof and @typeof
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... but I don't feel strongly between @instanceof and @typeof ←
15:39:05 <Ralph> ... I think we could justify either
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... I think we could justify either ←
15:39:18 <Ralph> Shane: @typeof is OK with me
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Unknown Shane: @typeof is OK with me ←
15:39:27 <Ralph> Steven: we're addressing the microformats crowd
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Unknown Steven: we're addressing the microformats crowd ←
15:39:44 <Ralph> ... it's nice of the words suggest something without having to refer to RDF Concepts
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... it's nice of the words suggest something without having to refer to RDF concepts ←
15:39:52 <Ralph> s/Concepts/concepts/
15:40:34 <Ralph> Mark: but we should be careful not to say something that's wrong in the world of RDF concepts
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Unknown Mark: but we should be careful not to say something that's wrong in the world of RDF concepts ←
15:40:52 <Ralph> ... e.g. 'contains' doesn't have an RDF interpretation
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... e.g. 'contains' doesn't have an RDF interpretation ←
15:42:09 <Ralph> Ben: both @kind and @typeof are superior to @instanceof
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Unknown Ben: both @kind and @typeof are superior to @instanceof ←
15:43:15 <Ralph> ... I'm ok with @typeof but single-word things are nice
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... I'm ok with @typeof but single-word things are nice ←
15:43:33 <Ralph> ... @kind is less likely to receive complaints
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... @kind is less likely to receive complaints ←
15:44:15 <Ralph> ... and telling people it's 'kind like mankind'
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... and telling people it's 'kind like mankind' ←
15:44:25 <Ralph> [Personkind :) ]
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[Personkind :) ] ←
15:44:46 <Ralph> Mark: I don't doubt that @kind can be explained
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Unknown Mark: I don't doubt that @kind can be explained ←
15:44:57 <Ralph> ... and isn't this very close to the Germanic ?
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... and isn't this very close to the Germanic ? ←
15:45:34 <Ralph> ... do we even want to have to send the one-line 'kind like mankind' mail?
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... do we even want to have to send the one-line 'kind like mankind' mail? ←
15:46:01 <Ralph> ... I think @kind would generate more questions than @typeof
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... I think @kind would generate more questions than @typeof ←
15:47:07 <Ralph> Steven: I prefer @typeof to @instanceof
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Unknown Steven: I prefer @typeof to @instanceof ←
15:48:20 <Ralph> PROPOSE: change @instanceof to @typeof
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Unknown PROPOSE: change @instanceof to @typeof ←
15:48:28 <msporny> +1
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Unknown msporny: +1 ←
15:48:34 <Ralph> no objection
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no objection ←
15:48:34 <ShaneM> +1
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Unknown ShaneM: +1 ←
15:48:49 <markbirbeck> +1
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Unknown markbirbeck: +1 ←
15:49:56 <benadida> +1
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Unknown benadida: +1 ←
15:50:26 <Steven> abstain
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Unknown Steven: abstain ←
15:50:33 <Ralph> RESOLVED: change @instanceof to @typeof
RESOLVED: change @instanceof to @typeof ←
15:50:54 <Ralph> ACTION: Mark and Shane update Syntax to change @instanceof to @typeof
ACTION: Mark and Shane update Syntax to change @instanceof to @typeof ←
15:51:08 <Ralph> ACTION: Manu update test cases to change @instanceof to @typeof
ACTION: Manu update test cases to change @instanceof to @typeof ←
15:51:10 <Steven> I abstain because I think it is a bad choice, but I don't expect anything I suggest will gain traction, since I've already tried so many
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Unknown Steven: I abstain because I think it is a bad choice, but I don't expect anything I suggest will gain traction, since I've already tried so many ←
15:52:45 <Ralph> Ben: does this require another Last Call?
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Unknown Ben: does this require another Last Call? ←
15:53:28 <Ralph> Ralph: if we believe there will be objections then it's less costly to do another Last Call than to discover objections in CR
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Unknown Ralph: if we believe there will be objections then it's less costly to do another Last Call than to discover objections in CR ←
15:53:37 <Ralph> Shane: we should get Yahoo!'s feedback
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Unknown Shane: we should get Yahoo!'s feedback ←
15:53:49 <ShaneM> I would like to see a new test case that uses @instanceof and should fail
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Unknown ShaneM: I would like to see a new test case that uses @instanceof and should fail ←
15:54:05 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben write to Micah for feedback on change to @typeof
ACTION: Ben write to Micah for feedback on change to @typeof ←
15:57:16 <Ralph> Topic: ISSUE-101: garbage-collecting useless triples (or not?)
15:57:24 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/101 issue 101
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-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/101 ISSUE-101 ←
15:58:01 <Ralph> Ben: "late binding" is better terminology than "garbage collection", as Shane noted
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Unknown Ben: "late binding" is better terminology than "garbage collection", as Shane noted ←
15:58:21 <ShaneM> I have to leave, but for the record I am in favor of generating these triples even if they are meaningless. Or rather, I don't mind either way.
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Unknown ShaneM: I have to leave, but for the record I am in favor of generating these triples even if they are meaningless. Or rather, I don't mind either way. ←
15:58:37 <ShaneM> +q
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Unknown ShaneM: +q ←
15:58:55 <Zakim> -ShaneM
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Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←
15:59:15 <Ralph> Mark: the irony is frustrating as it only comes from Ivan's notes
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Unknown Mark: the irony is frustrating as it only comes from Ivan's notes ←
15:59:46 <Ralph> ... it was purely by chance that I discovered that by moving something outside of the recursion we could eliminate these triples
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... it was purely by chance that I discovered that by moving something outside of the recursion we could eliminate these triples ←
16:00:19 <Ralph> ... this came as a side-effect of fixing a bug uncovered during SWD WG review
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... this came as a side-effect of fixing a bug uncovered during SWD WG review ←
16:01:42 <Ralph> ... it's incorrect to say this is impossible to handle this in XSLT
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... it's incorrect to say this is impossible to handle this in XSLT ←
16:02:21 <Ralph> ... I am, however, worried about introducing other problems if we change this
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... I am, however, worried about introducing other problems if we change this ←
16:03:13 <Ralph> Ben: my parser is conformant in every way except this one; I've just never made this change
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Unknown Ben: my parser is conformant in every way except this one; I've just never made this change ←
16:03:23 <Ralph> Manu: I prefer keeping the current rule set as is
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Unknown Manu: I prefer keeping the current rule set as is ←
16:04:07 <markbirbeck> q+
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Unknown markbirbeck: q+ ←
16:04:37 <Ralph> ... I don't see a use case for all these nested @rels
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... I don't see a use case for all these nested @rels ←
16:05:19 <Ralph> ... I don't see a use case for building up triples with all these meaningless bnodes
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... I don't see a use case for building up triples with all these meaningless bnodes ←
16:06:11 <Ralph> ... I don't see sufficient benefits to this change
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... I don't see sufficient benefits to this change ←
16:06:49 <Ralph> Mark: while I agree with Manu, there's an opposing view
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Unknown Mark: while I agree with Manu, there's an opposing view ←
16:07:16 <Ralph> ... one of the consequences of the error that I fixed is that when there are multiple @property as the child of a hanging triple you repeat the hanging thing
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... one of the consequences of the error that I fixed is that when there are multiple @property as the child of a hanging triple you repeat the hanging thing ←
16:07:47 <Ralph> ... you could argue that if we're leaving things as they are then it's not a big leap to asking us to eliminate _all_ redundant triples
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... you could argue that if we're leaving things as they are then it's not a big leap to asking us to eliminate _all_ redundant triples ←
16:08:10 <Ralph> ... I wonder if we're setting ourselves up to something
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... I wonder if we're setting ourselves up to something ←
16:08:24 <Ralph> ... it may be more honest to admit there's stuff lying around
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... it may be more honest to admit there's stuff lying around ←
16:08:57 <Ralph> Ben: it could seem inconsistent to keep this flag here to get rid of redundant triples yet keep redundant triples elsewhere
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Unknown Ben: it could seem inconsistent to keep this flag here to get rid of redundant triples yet keep duplicate triples elsewhere ←
16:09:25 <Ralph> s/keep redundant/keep duplicate/
16:09:34 <Ralph> Steven: I don't have a strong feeling either way
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Unknown Steven: I don't have a strong feeling either way ←
16:10:56 <Ralph> Ralph: I'm concerned that if we make this change we should do more testing
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Unknown Ralph: I'm concerned that if we make this change we should do more testing ←
16:11:26 <msporny> q+
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Unknown msporny: q+ ←
16:12:11 <Ralph> Ben: if this is an issue that is really needling a few people and it takes us a few weeks to test, that seems reasonable to me
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Unknown Ben: if this is an issue that is really needling a few people and it takes us a few weeks to test, that seems reasonable to me ←
16:12:38 <Ralph> Mark: the extra complexity in the rules is not to do with this issue but to deal with a bug in the recursion spotted by the SWD review
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Unknown Mark: the extra complexity in the rules is not to do with this issue but to deal with a bug in the recursion spotted by the SWD review ←
16:12:55 <Ralph> ... I noted that my fix to the recursion could also address something Ivan noted
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... I noted that my fix to the recursion could also address something Ivan noted ←
16:13:25 <Ralph> Ben: the complexity may just be a perception
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Unknown Ben: the complexity may just be a perception ←
16:14:06 <Ralph> ... taking 3 weeks to resolve this may be worthwhile
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... taking 3 weeks to resolve this may be worthwhile ←
16:14:29 <Ralph> Mark: the completion of incomplete triples can be made conditional
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Unknown Mark: the completion of incomplete triples can be made conditional ←
16:14:44 <Ralph> ... could make a tiny change to _always_ complete triples
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... could make a tiny change to _always_ complete triples ←
16:15:10 <Ralph> ... this might have less risk of new bugs but wouldn't produce a big simplification
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... this might have less risk of new bugs but wouldn't produce a big simplification ←
16:15:24 <Ralph> Manu: we should be very careful about why we're making this change
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Unknown Manu: we should be very careful about why we're making this change ←
16:15:36 <Ralph> ... and I don't see that a change here will reduce the complexity of the rules
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... and I don't see that a change here will reduce the complexity of the rules ←
16:16:06 <Ralph> ... the only argument [that persuades me] is that people will be building up their triples in this particular way by creating lots of bnodes
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... the only argument [that persuades me] is that people will be building up their triples in this particular way by creating lots of bnodes ←
16:16:18 <Ralph> ... if it doesn't simplify the rules then it won't simplify the implmentation
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... if it doesn't simplify the rules then it won't simplify the implmentation ←
16:16:29 <Ralph> Ben: but we have an explicit comment from Micah to that effect
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Unknown Ben: but we have an explicit comment from Micah to that effect ←
16:17:04 <Steven> Regrets for next week
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Unknown Steven: Regrets for next week ←
16:17:09 <Ralph> Mark: but [Micah's comment] mis-identifies where the complexity is coming from
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Unknown Mark: but [Micah's comment] mis-identifies where the complexity is coming from ←
16:17:23 <Ralph> ... Micah is seeing the recursion as complex in order to get rid of extra triples
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... Micah is seeing the recursion as complex in order to get rid of extra triples ←
16:17:42 <Ralph> ... but the recursion is there to handle intervening markup
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... but the recursion is there to handle intervening markup ←
16:18:10 <Ralph> ... my reference to 'extra triples' in the spec is misleading people to think that's the reason for the recursion
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... my reference to 'extra triples' in the spec is misleading people to think that's the reason for the recursion ←
16:18:12 <Steven> gotta go
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Unknown Steven: gotta go ←
16:18:46 <Ralph> ... I still think it's an easy change but as we all know, any change brings a risk of introducing new bugs
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... I still think it's an easy change but as we all know, any change brings a risk of introducing new bugs ←
16:18:59 <Ralph> Ralph: and I'm ok with 3 weeks to test if we believe the change is useful
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Unknown Ralph: and I'm ok with 3 weeks to test if we believe the change is useful ←
16:19:06 <Ralph> Ben: I'm also ok with 3 weeks
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Unknown Ben: I'm also ok with 3 weeks ←
16:19:14 <Ralph> ... I feel strongly that this could be misleading
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... I feel strongly that this could be misleading ←
16:19:31 <Ralph> ... my concern was always about authors and what could be confusing to them
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... my concern was always about authors and what could be confusing to them ←
16:19:46 <Ralph> ... DanBri seems to think this is actually _wrong_
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... DanBri seems to think this is actually _wrong_ ←
16:20:59 <Ralph> Ben: Steven and Shane don't seem to feel strongly either way
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Unknown Ben: Steven and Shane don't seem to feel strongly either way ←
16:21:24 <Ralph> Mark: if there's no other reason to repeat Last Call, I'd leave the spec as is
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Unknown Mark: if there's no other reason to repeat Last Call, I'd leave the spec as is ←
16:23:45 <Ralph> Ralph: I'm mostly concerned about leaving adequate testing time if we make this change
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Unknown Ralph: I'm mostly concerned about leaving adequate testing time if we make this change ←
16:24:00 <Ralph> ... in particular, we won't likely get a new cleanroom implementation
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... in particular, we won't likely get a new cleanroom implementation ←
16:24:13 <Ralph> Ben: I'm willing to do a new clean room implementation
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Unknown Ben: I'm willing to do a new clean room implementation ←
16:24:27 <Ralph> Manu: I don't see a strong reason to change
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Unknown Manu: I don't see a strong reason to change ←
16:27:22 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
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Zakim IRC Bot: -markbirbeck ←
16:27:41 <Ralph> ... but adding 3 weeks to the schedule bothers me
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... but adding 3 weeks to the schedule bothers me ←
16:27:45 <markbirbeck> Sorry about that, but I have to fax off a large document, so need the phone. :)
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Unknown markbirbeck: Sorry about that, but I have to fax off a large document, so need the phone. :) ←
16:28:41 <markbirbeck> tell me about it.....
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Unknown markbirbeck: tell me about it..... ←
16:28:45 <benadida> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Mar/0256.html
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Unknown benadida: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Mar/0256.html ←
16:33:33 <Ralph> PROPOSED: Modify processing rules per ISSUE-101 to process bnode-only triples
PROPOSED: Modify processing rules per ISSUE-101 to process bnode-only triples ←
16:33:51 <Ralph> PROPOSED: Modify processing rules per ISSUE-101 to process and produce triples consisting of only bnodes
PROPOSED: Modify processing rules per ISSUE-101 to process and produce triples consisting of only bnodes ←
16:35:05 <Ralph> Ralph: Shane and Mark seem to lean on the side of keeping the triples
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Unknown Ralph: Shane and Mark seem to lean on the side of keeping the triples ←
16:35:22 <Ralph> Ralph: Steven seems to be abstaining
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Unknown Ralph: Steven seems to be abstaining ←
16:35:44 <Ralph> Ralph: I'm ok with the change if Ben does a cleanroom implementation and we add time to test
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Unknown Ralph: I'm ok with the change if Ben does a cleanroom implementation and we add time to test ←
16:35:57 <benadida> +1 to proposal
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Unknown benadida: +1 to proposal ←
16:37:21 <msporny> +1, only if the group is okay with extending testing for another 3-4 weeks and Ben has a cleanroom implementation. I don't particularly agree that the change is helpful, but others feel that this will help authors.
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Unknown msporny: +1, only if the group is okay with extending testing for another 3-4 weeks and Ben has a cleanroom implementation. I don't particularly agree that the change is helpful, but others feel that this will help authors. ←
16:37:47 <Ralph> RESOLVED: Modify processing rules per ISSUE-101 to process bnode-only triples
RESOLVED: Modify processing rules per ISSUE-101 to process bnode-only triples ←
16:38:15 <Ralph> Ralph: we don't actually know if Steven, Mark, and Shane agree to the +3 weeks so they'll have to object if that's the case
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Unknown Ralph: we don't actually know if Steven, Mark, and Shane agree to the +3 weeks so they'll have to object if that's the case ←
16:51:00 <Zakim> -msporny
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(No events recorded for 12 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: -msporny ←
16:51:00 <Zakim> -Ralph
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Zakim IRC Bot: -Ralph ←
16:51:02 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
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Zakim IRC Bot: -Ben_Adida ←
16:51:51 <Ralph> zakim, list attendees
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zakim, list attendees ←
16:51:51 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ShaneM, Ralph, Steven, +1.610.804.aaaa, msporny, Ben_Adida, markbirbeck
Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been ShaneM, Ralph, Steven, +1.610.804.aaaa, msporny, Ben_Adida, markbirbeck ←
16:51:58 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes
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rrsagent, please draft minutes ←
16:51:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph ←
16:52:55 <Ralph> i/scribe: Ralph/Topic: Action Review
16:53:01 <Ralph> [adjourned]
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[adjourned] ←
16:53:03 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes
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rrsagent, please draft minutes ←
16:53:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph ←
16:53:42 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
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rrsagent, bye ←
16:53:42 <RRSAgent> I see 11 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-actions.rdf :
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 11 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-actions.rdf : ←
16:53:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben and Ralph to review response to Christian Hoertnagl. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] [1]
ACTION: Ben and Ralph to review response to Christian Hoertnagl. [recorded in ACTION-07]">http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-07] [1] ←
16:53:42 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-irc#T15-11-16
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-irc#T15-11-16 ←
16:53:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark to move _:a bnode notation to normative section [2]
ACTION: Mark to move _:a bnode notation to normative section [2] ←
16:53:42 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-irc#T15-25-08
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-irc#T15-25-08 ←
16:53:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01] [3]
ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C [recorded in ACTION-01]">http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-01] [3] ←
16:53:42 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-irc#T15-25-31
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-irc#T15-25-31 ←
16:53:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to follow up on media type discussion with Steven, Ralph, and TAG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action08] [4]
ACTION: Ben to follow up on media type discussion with Steven, Ralph, and TAG [recorded in ACTION-08]">http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-08] [4] ←
16:53:42 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-irc#T15-26-07
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-irc#T15-26-07 ←
16:53:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to respond to issue 87 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [5]
ACTION: Ben to respond to ISSUE-87 [recorded in ACTION-09]">http://www.w3.org/2008/02/28-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-09] [5] ←
16:53:42 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-irc#T15-27-04
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-irc#T15-27-04 ←
16:53:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to enable EARL output in RDFa Test Harness [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] [6]
ACTION: Manu to enable EARL output in RDFa Test Harness [recorded in ACTION-13]">http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-13] [6] ←
16:53:42 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-irc#T15-27-16
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-irc#T15-27-16 ←
16:53:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark/Shane include issue 89 correction in Changes section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [7]
ACTION: Mark/Shane include ISSUE-89 correction in Changes section [recorded in ACTION-11]">http://www.w3.org/2008/03/06-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-11] [7] ←
16:53:42 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-irc#T15-28-02
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-irc#T15-28-02 ←
16:53:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [8]
ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in ACTION-12]">http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-12] [8] ←
16:53:42 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-irc#T15-28-09
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-irc#T15-28-09 ←
16:53:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark and Shane update Syntax to change @instanceof to @typeof [9]
ACTION: Mark and Shane update Syntax to change @instanceof to @typeof [9] ←
16:53:42 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-irc#T15-50-54
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-irc#T15-50-54 ←
16:53:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu update test cases to change @instanceof to @typeof [10]
ACTION: Manu update test cases to change @instanceof to @typeof [10] ←
16:53:42 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-irc#T15-51-08
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-irc#T15-51-08 ←
16:53:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben write to Micah for feedback on change to @typeof [11]
ACTION: Ben write to Micah for feedback on change to @typeof [11] ←
16:53:42 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-irc#T15-54-05
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-irc#T15-54-05 ←
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