13:53:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/06/10-ldp-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/06/10-ldp-irc ←
13:53:46 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs public ←
13:53:48 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be LDP
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be LDP ←
13:53:48 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_LDP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_LDP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes ←
13:53:49 <trackbot> Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference
13:53:49 <trackbot> Date: 10 June 2013
13:57:56 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_LDP()10:00AM has now started ←
13:58:05 <Zakim> +SteveBattle
Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveBattle ←
13:59:42 <Ashok> Same here ... will join in a few minutes
Ashok Malhotra: Same here ... will join in a few minutes ←
14:00:36 <Zakim> +Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud ←
14:01:06 <Zakim> +JohnArwe
Zakim IRC Bot: +JohnArwe ←
14:02:39 <JohnArwe> regrets: sandro
14:02:50 <Zakim> + +329331aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +329331aaaa ←
14:02:55 <Zakim> +bblfish
Zakim IRC Bot: +bblfish ←
14:02:58 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ashok_Malhotra ←
14:03:11 <bblfish> hi
Henry Story: hi ←
14:03:12 <Zakim> +Steve_Speicher
Zakim IRC Bot: +Steve_Speicher ←
14:03:46 <SteveS> Zakim, this is Steve_Speicher
Steve Speicher: Zakim, this is Steve_Speicher ←
14:03:47 <Zakim> sorry, SteveS, I do not see a conference named 'Steve_Speicher' in progress or scheduled at this time
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, SteveS, I do not see a conference named 'Steve_Speicher' in progress or scheduled at this time ←
14:03:54 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[GVoice] ←
14:04:01 <JohnArwe> zakim, aaaa is Miel
John Arwe: zakim, aaaa is Miel ←
14:04:01 <Zakim> +Miel; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Miel; got it ←
14:04:02 <ericP> Zakim, [GVoice] is me
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, [GVoice] is me ←
14:04:02 <Zakim> +ericP; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP; got it ←
14:04:14 <SteveS> zakim, Steve_Speicher is me
Steve Speicher: zakim, Steve_Speicher is me ←
14:04:14 <Zakim> +SteveS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveS; got it ←
14:04:21 <mielvds> zakim, aaaa is me
Miel Vander Sande: zakim, aaaa is me ←
14:04:21 <Zakim> sorry, mielvds, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, mielvds, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa' ←
14:04:35 <mielvds> fair enough
Miel Vander Sande: fair enough ←
14:04:50 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?
Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, who's on the phone? ←
14:04:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see SteveBattle, Arnaud, JohnArwe, Miel, bblfish, Ashok_Malhotra, SteveS, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see SteveBattle, Arnaud, JohnArwe, Miel, bblfish, Ashok_Malhotra, SteveS, ericP ←
14:05:31 <bblfish> ah ok
Henry Story: ah ok ←
14:06:10 <Zakim> +??P11
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P11 ←
14:06:24 <rgarcia> zakim, ??P1 is me
Raúl García Castro: zakim, ??P1 is me ←
14:06:24 <Zakim> +rgarcia; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +rgarcia; got it ←
14:06:26 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
14:06:27 <bblfish> "Yes we scan"
Henry Story: "Yes we scan" ←
14:06:32 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
14:06:32 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +TallTed; got it ←
14:06:35 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
14:06:35 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should now be muted ←
14:06:44 <JohnArwe> Scribe: Henry
(Scribe set to Henry Story)
<bblfish> Chair: Arnaud
<bblfish> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.06.10
<bblfish> Topic: Admin
<bblfish> subTopic: Approval of last meeting's minutes
<bblfish> http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/ldp/2013-06-03
http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/ldp/2013-06-03 ←
14:07:10 <stevebattle3> They look OK
Steve Battle: They look OK ←
14:07:20 <SteveS> minutes looked good to me
Steve Speicher: minutes looked good to me ←
14:07:38 <Zakim> +roger
Zakim IRC Bot: +roger ←
14:08:12 <bblfish> Resolved: Accepted minutes of June 3, 2013
RESOLVED: Accepted minutes of June 3, 2013 ←
14:09:19 <bblfish> subTopic: Next Meeting
14:09:25 <bblfish> arnaud: in Madrid, Spain.
Arnaud Le Hors: in Madrid, Spain. ←
<bblfish> ... on June 24 we will have an informal meeting for debriefing
... on June 24 we will have an informal meeting for debriefing ←
<bblfish> ... the next formal telecon will be on July 1.
... the next formal telecon will be on July 1. ←
14:10:18 <bblfish> Topic: Tracking of Actions and Issues
<bblfish> subtopic: Actions pending review
14:10:52 <bblfish> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/actions/open
http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/actions/open ←
14:11:14 <bblfish> which action are we looking at?
which action are we looking at? ←
14:11:40 <bblfish> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/actions/68
http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/actions/68 ←
<bblfish> JohnArwe: summary of changes on action-68: moved topic from GET-containers (5.3.2?) to HEAD-Containers since that's where it's more useful; also added the LDP-defined URL to the vocabulary document.
John Arwe: summary of changes on ACTION-68: moved topic from GET-containers (5.3.2?) to HEAD-Containers since that's where it's more useful; also added the LDP-defined URL to the vocabulary document. ←
14:11:52 <bblfish> Resolved: Close action 68
14:12:21 <Zakim> +??P14
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14 ←
14:12:33 <bblfish> Arnaud: for others to look at the spec updates and make sure they are happy with it
Arnaud Le Hors: for others to look at the spec updates and make sure they are happy with it ←
14:12:45 <bblfish> subTopic: Raised issues
14:13:17 <bblfish> Issue-80 ?
14:13:17 <trackbot> ISSUE-80 -- How does a client know which POST requests create new resources -- raised
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-80 -- How does a client know which POST requests create new resources -- raised ←
14:13:17 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/80
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/80 ←
14:13:32 <krp> zakim, ??P14 is me
Kevin Page: zakim, ??P14 is me ←
14:13:32 <Zakim> +krp; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +krp; got it ←
14:15:26 <bblfish> How does a client know that a POST is going to create a new resource?
How does a client know that a POST is going to create a new resource? ←
14:15:31 <bblfish> q+
q+ ←
14:16:30 <bblfish> q?
q? ←
<bblfish> JohnArwe: came at it from standpoint of how does client know the semantic it gets is "create".
John Arwe: came at it from standpoint of how does client know the semantic it gets is "create". ←
14:17:59 <bblfish> Arnaud: we can either leave it as Raised
Arnaud Le Hors: we can either leave it as Raised ←
14:18:06 <bblfish> ... or open it.
... or open it. ←
14:18:34 <bblfish> q?
q? ←
14:18:46 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
14:19:50 <TallTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
14:19:50 <Zakim> TallTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should no longer be muted ←
14:24:02 <bblfish> Resolution: Open Issue-80
<bblfish> Topic: Open Issues
14:24:58 <bblfish> subtopic: Issue-74
14:24:58 <trackbot> ISSUE-74 -- How does a client know if conditional requests are required -- pending review
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-74 -- How does a client know if conditional requests are required -- pending review ←
14:24:58 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/74
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/74 ←
14:26:31 <bblfish> Arnaud: summarises it and says it should be uncontroversial
Arnaud Le Hors: summarises it and says it should be uncontroversial ←
14:26:31 <Arnaud> PROPOSAL: Close ISSUE-74: How does a client know if conditional requests are required as proposed.
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-74: How does a client know if conditional requests are required as proposed. ←
14:26:44 <Zakim> +Kalpa
Zakim IRC Bot: +Kalpa ←
14:26:45 <stevebattle3> +1
Steve Battle: +1 ←
14:26:46 <ericP> +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
14:26:47 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
14:26:48 <mielvds> +1
Miel Vander Sande: +1 ←
14:26:48 <krp> +1
Kevin Page: +1 ←
14:26:52 <Ashok> +1
Ashok Malhotra: +1 ←
14:26:52 <TallTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
14:26:53 <rgarcia> +1
Raúl García Castro: +1 ←
14:26:57 <roger> +1
Roger Menday: +1 ←
14:26:59 <JohnArwe> +1
14:27:14 <Arnaud> Resolved: Close ISSUE-74: How does a client know if conditional requests are required as proposed.
RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-74: How does a client know if conditional requests are required as proposed. ←
14:28:33 <bblfish> subtopic: Issue-71
<bblfish> Arnaud: picked Issue-71 because that seems to be the primary issue characterizing Henry's concern with the spec.
Arnaud Le Hors: picked ISSUE-71 because that seems to be the primary issue characterizing Henry's concern with the spec. ←
<bblfish> ... didn't really have time to discuss it last week so would like to see if we can make some progress and better understand where everyone stands on this.
... didn't really have time to discuss it last week so would like to see if we can make some progress and better understand where everyone stands on this. ←
<bblfish> Arnaud: It seems to me that you are reopening the issue about containment: aggregation vs composition
Arnaud Le Hors: It seems to me that you are reopening the issue about containment: aggregation vs composition ←
<bblfish> ... because you are tying the notion of membership to resources created with the container
... because you are tying the notion of membership to resources created with the container ←
<bblfish> ... yet, this isn't the primary function of containers
... yet, this isn't the primary function of containers ←
<bblfish> ... the primary function of containers is merely to list member resources
... the primary function of containers is merely to list member resources ←
<bblfish> ... independently of how they were created
... independently of how they were created ←
<bblfish> bblfish: this discussion never made sense to me
Henry Story: this discussion never made sense to me ←
<bblfish> ... I think creating a resource by POSTing to a container should add the resource as a member to the container itself, using ldp:contains
... I think creating a resource by POSTing to a container should add the resource as a member to the container itself, using ldp:contains ←
<bblfish> ... a relation with that resource can then be added, like any relation can be added
... a relation with that resource can then be added, like any relation can be added ←
<bblfish> ... the addition to the membershipSubject of a triple with membershipPredicate when a resource gets created is a short cut.
... the addition to the membershipSubject of a triple with membershipPredicate when a resource gets created is a short cut. ←
14:29:05 <SteveS> issue-71?
14:29:05 <trackbot> ISSUE-71 -- No membershipSubject or membershipPredicate -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-71 -- No membershipSubject or membershipPredicate -- open ←
14:29:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/71
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/71 ←
14:33:29 <stevebattle3> q+
Steve Battle: q+ ←
14:34:43 <Arnaud> ack stevebattle
Arnaud Le Hors: ack stevebattle ←
14:35:43 <bblfish> that's issue-72
14:37:00 <JohnArwe> q+
14:37:38 <Ashok> q+
Ashok Malhotra: q+ ←
14:37:45 <stevebattle3> q+
Steve Battle: q+ ←
14:37:57 <TallTed> deref LDPC, get description of Container, which lists its Members by URI.
Ted Thibodeau: deref LDPC, get description of Container, which lists its Members by URI. ←
14:37:57 <TallTed> to get descriptions of Members, deref *their* URIs -- and they might say "this is a document" and they might NOT say that
Ted Thibodeau: to get descriptions of Members, deref *their* URIs -- and they might say "this is a document" and they might NOT say that ←
14:38:14 <Arnaud> ack john
Arnaud Le Hors: ack john ←
14:38:16 <bblfish> q?
q? ←
14:38:23 <TallTed> you don't need to be given any other URI to get the description of a Container's Member
Ted Thibodeau: you don't need to be given any other URI to get the description of a Container's Member ←
14:39:26 <Arnaud> ack ashok
Arnaud Le Hors: ack ashok ←
14:40:18 <bblfish> john: current document does not say one cannot have relations of membership that are not documents, just that one cannot use POST to do that, but PATCH would be ok
John Arwe: current document does not say one cannot have relations of membership that are not documents, just that one cannot use POST to do that, but PATCH would be ok ←
14:40:33 <bblfish> q+
q+ ←
14:40:36 <TallTed> I'm wondering whether "this is incomprehensible to me" shouldn't be addressed by an issue that *says* that
Ted Thibodeau: I'm wondering whether "this is incomprehensible to me" shouldn't be addressed by an issue that *says* that ←
14:40:40 <Arnaud> ack steveb
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steveb ←
14:40:54 <bblfish> ashok: what are the two situations: what henry would like and what others would like
Ashok Malhotra: what are the two situations: what henry would like and what others would like ←
14:41:07 <bblfish> yes, thanks for helping :-)
yes, thanks for helping :-) ←
14:41:20 <bblfish> q?
q? ←
14:42:05 <bblfish> stevebattle3: issue-72 shows when the membershipSubject, Object falls short. IT also shows that rdfs:member is not really a relation
Steve Battle: ISSUE-72 shows when the membershipSubject, Object falls short. IT also shows that rdfs:member is not really a relation ←
14:42:07 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
14:43:46 <roger> bblfish: we should be as close to ATOM as possible.
Henry Story: we should be as close to ATOM as possible. [ Scribe Assist by Roger Menday ] ←
14:44:06 <roger> I disagreee !!!!
Roger Menday: I disagreee !!!! ←
14:44:07 <ericP> q+ to paste a lot
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to paste a lot ←
14:44:12 <stevebattle3> Is anybody going to argue in defence of the status quo?
Steve Battle: Is anybody going to argue in defence of the status quo? ←
14:46:36 <Arnaud> ack eric
Arnaud Le Hors: ack eric ←
14:46:36 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to paste a lot
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to paste a lot ←
14:46:43 <JohnArwe> q+
14:47:59 <ericP> conflating entities and documents about entities (using rdfs:member as the membership predicate):
Eric Prud'hommeaux: conflating entities and documents about entities (using rdfs:member as the membership predicate): ←
14:48:02 <ericP> LDPC: <Page1> { <Issues> rdfs:member <Issue1> . }
Eric Prud'hommeaux: LDPC: <Page1> { <Issues> rdfs:member <ISSUE-1> . } ←
14:48:05 <ericP> LDPR: <Issue1> { <Issue1> issue:description "borken" . }
Eric Prud'hommeaux: LDPR: <ISSUE-1> { <ISSUE-1> issue:description "borken" . } ←
14:48:07 <ericP> separating entities from documents about entities:
Eric Prud'hommeaux: separating entities from documents about entities: ←
14:48:10 <ericP> LDPC: <Page1> { <Issues> rdfs:member <Issue1#it> . }
Eric Prud'hommeaux: LDPC: <Page1> { <Issues> rdfs:member <ISSUE-1#it> . } ←
14:48:12 <ericP> LDPR: <Issue1> { <Issue1#it> issue:description "borken" . }
Eric Prud'hommeaux: LDPR: <ISSUE-1> { <ISSUE-1#it> issue:description "borken" . } ←
14:48:15 <ericP> pathological case:
Eric Prud'hommeaux: pathological case: ←
14:48:17 <ericP> LDPC: <Page1> { <Issues> rdfs:member <someOtherURL> . }
Eric Prud'hommeaux: LDPC: <Page1> { <Issues> rdfs:member <someOtherURL> . } ←
14:48:20 <ericP> LDPR: <Issue1> { <someOtherURL> issue:description "borken" . }
Eric Prud'hommeaux: LDPR: <ISSUE-1> { <someOtherURL> issue:description "borken" . } ←
14:49:12 <roger> +q
Roger Menday: +q ←
14:50:19 <bblfish> that is ISSUE-72
14:51:00 <Arnaud> ack john
Arnaud Le Hors: ack john ←
14:51:57 <roger> -q
Roger Menday: -q ←
14:52:42 <ericP> q+ to give a tiny bit of background on monotonicity
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to give a tiny bit of background on monotonicity ←
14:53:05 <Arnaud> ack eric
Arnaud Le Hors: ack eric ←
14:53:05 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to give a tiny bit of background on monotonicity
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to give a tiny bit of background on monotonicity ←
14:53:40 <bblfish> q+
q+ ←
14:54:38 <bblfish> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2013Jun/0003.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2013Jun/0003.html ←
14:55:38 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
14:55:58 <JohnArwe> FWIW, I don't think that the current spec discussion falls into EricP's description of "ok to break monotonicity when the world changes"
John Arwe: FWIW, I don't think that the current spec discussion falls into EricP's description of "ok to break monotonicity when the world changes" ←
14:56:21 <ericP> JohnArwe, yeah, i'm arriving at that too
Eric Prud'hommeaux: JohnArwe, yeah, i'm arriving at that too ←
14:58:20 <JohnArwe> if the monotonicity issue could be solved by simply always requiring ldp:membershipXXX (it's the defaulting that's the problem), why not just as EricP said simply always require those predicates, even if their object(s) == the current default?
John Arwe: if the monotonicity issue could be solved by simply always requiring ldp:membershipXXX (it's the defaulting that's the problem), why not just as EricP said simply always require those predicates, even if their object(s) == the current default? ←
14:58:36 <stevebattle3> In this case the absence of a membershipPredicate is supposed to mean something. It does break monotonicity.
Steve Battle: In this case the absence of a membershipPredicate is supposed to mean something. It does break monotonicity. ←
14:59:02 <ericP> JohnArwe, i'd say that that's the simplest path. others become quite convoluted
Eric Prud'hommeaux: JohnArwe, i'd say that that's the simplest path. others become quite convoluted ←
14:59:08 <JohnArwe> @steveB, "in this case" meaning in the spec as drafted today?
John Arwe: @steveB, "in this case" meaning in the spec as drafted today? ←
14:59:16 <stevebattle3> Yes
Steve Battle: Yes ←
14:59:33 <JohnArwe> I sense a proposal forming ...
John Arwe: I sense a proposal forming ... ←
15:00:11 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ashok_Malhotra ←
15:00:17 <stevebattle3> Straw-poll of one - I support issue 71 proposal
Steve Battle: Straw-poll of one - I support ISSUE-71 proposal ←
15:00:18 <roger> i would support that John.
Roger Menday: i would support that John. ←
<bblfish> Arnaud: ok, let's close the call on this, see you next week in Madrid!
Arnaud Le Hors: ok, let's close the call on this, see you next week in Madrid! ←
15:00:20 <mielvds> ok, see you next week
Miel Vander Sande: ok, see you next week ←
15:00:22 <Zakim> -bblfish
Zakim IRC Bot: -bblfish ←
15:00:24 <Zakim> -SteveS
Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveS ←
15:00:25 <Zakim> -roger
Zakim IRC Bot: -roger ←
15:00:26 <Zakim> -Miel
Zakim IRC Bot: -Miel ←
15:00:27 <Zakim> -rgarcia
Zakim IRC Bot: -rgarcia ←
15:00:27 <Zakim> -krp
Zakim IRC Bot: -krp ←
15:00:29 <Zakim> -JohnArwe
Zakim IRC Bot: -JohnArwe ←
15:00:30 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
15:00:30 <Zakim> -Kalpa
Zakim IRC Bot: -Kalpa ←
15:00:32 <Zakim> -TallTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -TallTed ←
15:00:33 <Zakim> -ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP ←
15:00:34 <Zakim> -SteveBattle
Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveBattle ←
15:00:36 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended ←
15:00:36 <Zakim> Attendees were SteveBattle, Arnaud, JohnArwe, +329331aaaa, bblfish, Ashok_Malhotra, Miel, ericP, SteveS, rgarcia, TallTed, roger, krp, Kalpa
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were SteveBattle, Arnaud, JohnArwe, +329331aaaa, bblfish, Ashok_Malhotra, Miel, ericP, SteveS, rgarcia, TallTed, roger, krp, Kalpa ←
15:02:00 <TallTed> +1 solve monotonicity problem by simply always requiring ldp:membershipXXX be stated (it's the defaulting that's the problem)
Ted Thibodeau: +1 solve monotonicity problem by simply always requiring ldp:membershipXXX be stated (it's the defaulting that's the problem) ←
Formatted by CommonScribe