See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 29 August 2013
<AllanJ> scribe: allanj
from shawn: should be A not AA
<shawn> based on http://www.tader.info/scrolling.html
<jeanne> Today's Master document <- http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130828/MasterUAAG20130829.html
<jeanne> Today's Master document <- http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130828/MasterUAAG20130829.html
group feels that AA is fine, more information is welcome
<shawn> [ Shawn feels discussion wihtout background is not useful ]
sh: discussing email. understanding users with low vision and dyslexia and text customization
kf: is there something else we need to consider
sh: email was quick
... things need to be added
... complexities to consider
kf: start smaller and work to the bigger issues
js: zoom is basic level A
... advanced zoom is AA
sh: references research
... avoiding scrolling is the 3rd highest rating, 1st was text size
... EO has also been researching
kp: scrolling is important to the
RSI community also
... would be happy to move to A
jr: text rescaling or whole page rescaling
sh: mostly scaling blocks of text - separate from navigation.
jr: text resize, rescale viewport
... this will be very hard for browser to do
... text, images, etc all rescale at the same time. hard to do without horizontal scrolling
... if text only ok at A, but not whole viewport
gl: but if UA want to do reflow
on viewport nothing prevents them from doing it.
... "at least text" wraps
jr: "reflowable text
... sometimes author says "don't reflow"
gl: could use user-stylesheets to override reflow.
sh: this is only on html, not pdf
gl: will not help folks with pdf
sh: this must cover pdf
kf: do we have implementations?
gl: 1.8.3 add ", overriding author specified wrapping settings"
<shawn> implementation: at least Opera. plus all browsers with user style sheets
<jeanne> GL: Microsoft Word draft mode, Browsers can turn off styling
gl: word draft mode, in most browsers turn off styling
<shawn> 1.8.12 delete "reflowable"
<shawn> text content
<jeanne> +1 to delete reflowable
<shawn> and change to level A
<greg> Add: ", overriding any values specified by the author."
<greg> ("overriding" and "author" are links to the glossary.)
gl: some option, wrap to window. Word also has wrap to window
<jeanne> 1.8.12 Reflowing Zoom:
<jeanne> The user can specify that when text content in a graphical viewport rescales, it reflows so that one dimension of the content fits within the height or width of the viewport, overriding any values specified by the author. (Level AA)
jr: this is just reflow, no reflow zoom
<shawn> [ Shawn agrees reflow regardless of zoom]
<greg> The user can specify that text content in a graphical viewport reflows so that one dimension of the content fits within the height or width of the viewport, overriding any values specified by the author. (Level AA)
gl: stem - Reflow Text
kp: +1 to A
gl: need to fix examples
js: examples already talk about
... need pdf example
<shawn> ...lines of text go beyond the visible window (or viewport) and people have to scroll back and forth horizontally to read the text. ...For some people with disabilities, it is impossible to adequately read and comprehend text that requires such scrolling. Finding and activating scrollbars, then finding the next words in the sentence requires more effort. This causes a lose of reading flow and
<shawn> degrades comprehension, especially for people who have general difficulties in understanding written text....
sh: use any of this
... suggests taking out height - The user can specify that text content in a graphical viewport reflows so that the content fits within width of the viewport, overriding any values specified by the author.
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to suggest try width and check with Richard Ishida or other I18N folk
<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to check with r12a on need for vertical fit of 1.8.12 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-ua-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-878 - Check with r12a on need for vertical fit of 1.8.12 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-09-05].
<jeanne> +1 for level A
<jeanne> JR and JA for level A
resolution: Text Reflow: The user can specify that text content in a graphical viewport reflows so that one dimension of the content fits within the height or width of the viewport, overriding any values specified by the author. (Level A)
<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to renumber 1.8.12 to Level A, and adjust the summary. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-ua-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-879 - Renumber 1.8.12 to level a, and adjust the summary. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-09-05].
gl: is turning off all styles enough, or get specific
<greg> I'm concerned that browsers will claim they comply because the user can override author nowrap by turning off *all* author formatting, even though that may make the page unusable.
jr: not an issue
sh: good thing to consider, add to implementing--best practice to the wrap without changing other stuff rather than turn off all formatting
js: what about on mobile, no feature to turn off all styles?
<jeanne> scribe: jeanne
SH2: I do not think 1.4.2 Preserving Size Distinctions is necessary at all. I'll provide some support for that perspective from a survey (introduced at <http://www.tader.info/survey1304.html>).
<AllanJ> 1.4.2 Preserving Size Distinctions:
<AllanJ> he user can specify whether or not distinctions in the size of rendered text are preserved when that text is rescaled (e.g. headers continue to be larger than body text). (Level A)
<AllanJ> sh: there are no implementations. may be an extension.
<AllanJ> ... users should be able to change size at the element level, then this is not necessary
<AllanJ> gl: in word, reflow to window, or draft and everything is same size.
<AllanJ> js: this is something Wayne Dick proposed. this would make everything the same size.
<AllanJ> sh: user can set text size then covered.
<AllanJ> js: what have something on customizing text sizing
<AllanJ> kp: wayne was adamant about this.
<AllanJ> gl: reads 1.4.1, but does not get specific about keeping all text the same size
<AllanJ> ... 1.4.2 extends 1.4.1
<AllanJ> js: what about bumping it down a level?
<AllanJ> sh: will check with wayne, then come back to it.
<shawn> ACTION: shawn to work with Wayne on 1.4.2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-ua-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Error finding 'shawn'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/users>.
<scribe> ACTION: jeanne will discuss with shawn and Wayne on 1.4.2 and come back with a proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-ua-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-880 - Will discuss with shawn and wayne on 1.4.2 and come back with a proposal [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-09-05].
3. I'll have several suggestions (and challenges) for 1.4.1 Configure Rendered Text, for example:
3.a. I think 1.4.1 will need to be more specific -- for example, will need to specify range of fonts and colors to be available.
3.b. I think character spacing can go down to Level AA, and possibly line spacing, too.
3.c. There are several other things I suggest for Levels A, AA, and AAA.
<AllanJ> sh: element level customization is most important.
<shawn> Element [type] level Customization http://www.tader.info/element-level.html
<AllanJ> gl: element type customization
<AllanJ> does user styles cover this
<AllanJ> sh: yes
<AllanJ> gl: yes for html, but not for pdf (no user style sheets)
<AllanJ> sh: the point is PDF would have to do this.
<AllanJ> ... pdf has tags, can structure those to control presentation
<Eric> Eric needs to leave. Will return later
<AllanJ> kf: pushback, this seems aspirational
<AllanJ> gl: things that implement stylesheets could easily comply.
<AllanJ> sh: lets all things with no stylesheets less accessible
<AllanJ> kp: if we had SC wording and IER would be helpful
<AllanJ> ... if we have a proposal we can take it up next week,
<AllanJ> kp: have lots of questions.
<AllanJ> kf: this will take TIME, must be last call in Sept
<AllanJ> js: will work with shawn to get it done
<AllanJ> kp: want user perspective, good examples - use cases
<AllanJ> sh: importance of printing customized text. I increased font size I want to print them.
<AllanJ> kf: need fully baked proposals
<AllanJ> ja: no printing SC currently (loosing text on left edge of page is issue), was deferred to UAAG next
<AllanJ> sh: in 1.4.1
<AllanJ> ... what if browser only offers 2 sizes
<AllanJ> ja: for browser they already do with current settings, and user style sheets
<AllanJ> gl: this doesn't cover other user agents
<AllanJ> sh: you have to do this
<AllanJ> ... for AA need to choose line spacing at 1, 1.5 and 2
<AllanJ> ... AAA character spacing in .1 ems
<AllanJ> gl: want a minimum set
<AllanJ> sh: yes have a draft ready
<AllanJ> ... need to be more specific, will be a challenge
<AllanJ> sh: actual increments, points, ems, %% need more research
<AllanJ> ... perhaps this is not necessary
<AllanJ> ... browsers, pdf, etc already do increments
<AllanJ> ... are there other UAs (ebooks, closed systems, etc) that this would need to apply to.
<AllanJ> sh: color contrast (f/b). best for users, easiest for wording
<AllanJ> ... users can select f/b color from the palet of the OS.
<AllanJ> what about things without an OS.
<AllanJ> what about a devise (ebook reader) without OS
<AllanJ> gl: this thing runs on hardware
<AllanJ> js: kindle on IOS allows no color changes
<AllanJ> sh: if UAAG applies other devices then you need to word to include these devices
<AllanJ> js: uaag would apply to these type of apps
<AllanJ> jr: epub is webbased
<AllanJ> gl: kindle app for IOS UA or not UA
<AllanJ> kp: yes it is
<AllanJ> kp: caution, industry may push back
<Eric> Eric has returned
<AllanJ> gl: edge case, need to call out in definition of UA, include ereaders as example
<AllanJ> sh: you have to be able to choose color from OS
<AllanJ> gl: don't say OS we say platform...hardware, os, other layers.
<AllanJ> sh: fonts?
<AllanJ> sh: need 2 serif, 2 sans-serif fonts
<AllanJ> jr: these seem to be edge cases
<AllanJ> sh: go with the simple
<greg> I think Shawn is saying that the SC would set no minimum on UA in the marginal case of where there is no OS, so not platform-supported fonts. The UA would provide it's own fonts, and there would be no minimal set specified by the SC.
<greg> Scribe: greg
Greg: The correct way to word it would probably in the form of "the set of system fonts, or this specified set, whichever is larger".
<jeanne> JS: The real problem is not when there are no system fonts, it is the platforms that do not expose the fonts to the applications
<shawn> shawn encourages you to read:
<shawn> * Text Customization for Readability <http://www.tader.info/index.html>
<shawn> * Understanding Users' Needs to Customize Text Display <http://www.tader.info/understanding.html>
Discussion of priorities for the remaining time today.
<Eric> Eric signing off
<jeanne> 5.1.2 Intent - new
Most content specifications include features important to users with disabilities. Users may find it difficult or impossible to use a product that fails to support those features. Conformance claim documents list the technologies that the user agent fully supports, such as WAI-ARIA, so that users can make informed decisions about whether or not they will be able to use, and therefore should...
scribe: install, a new product or version of that product.
<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to convert links to the W3C format for Bibliographies [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-ua-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-881 - Convert links to the w3c format for bibliographies [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-09-05].
<jeanne> Today's Master doc <- http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130828/MasterUAAG20130829.html
<jeanne> ACTION: Kelly to address with UAWG adding "description" to 4.1.6 (KF, see review notes from F2F day 3) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-ua-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-882 - Address with uawg adding "description" to 4.1.6 (kf, see review notes from f2f day 3) [on Kelly Ford - due 2013-09-05].
<jeanne> ACTION: Kelly to bring up SC 3.2.5 Settings Change Confirmation to the group. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-ua-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-883 - Bring up sc 3.2.5 settings change confirmation to the group. [on Kelly Ford - due 2013-09-05].
<kford> We need to fix this sentence.
<kford> 'While it may improve accessibility for some users on some pages to have the page to***delete*** set focus to specific link***s*** or field***s*** when the page loads, it can also be detrimental for some users, and therefore users need to***delete*** control of this behavior.
<Jan> Unrecognizable content: When success criteria require authoring tools to treat web content according to semantic criteria, the success criteria do not apply when these semantics are missing (e.g., text that describes an image is only considered to be a text alternative when this role is encoded within markup).
<AllanJ> js: put this information from the definition in the introduction and link to the defintion of recognize
<Jan> UAAG 2.0 success criteria only apply to web content that can be *recognized*.
<Jan> UAAG 2.0 success criteria only apply to web content that can be *recognized* by user agents.
<AllanJ> put this in a new section
scribe: larger font rather than heading tags).
<Jan> scribe: Jan
Things still to do
Reconcile table of contents
Consistent stems list (Kim)
Fix resources at end of document (Jeanne)
Read the glossary (Everyone)
Finish making editorial comments (e.g. from EO) (Jeanne)
Reply to all outstanding comments (Jeanne)
Renumbering SCs because they changed priority (Jeanne)
Any other applicability notes to address (Jan)
Kim can reconcile Table of contents
JS: Aiming for Sept 24
Look up links in Resources
CSS changes to look more like ATAG2 but with WCAG2 type spacing (Jan)
Kelly to finish GL's 1 and 2 ("sanity check")
<AllanJ> removing @@ from doc-- still some floating around
Resolution: the Last Call will be 6 weeks
<AllanJ> table of contents
<AllanJ> proof glossary
<AllanJ> css changes - jan
Look through open action items (Kelly)
<AllanJ> close action-798 8/29/2013
<AllanJ> close action-798
<trackbot> Closed action-798.
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