IRC log of ua on 2013-08-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:49:15 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
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logging to
15:49:17 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:49:17 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
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Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
15:49:19 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()11:30AM scheduled to start 19 minutes ago
15:49:20 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
15:49:20 [trackbot]
Date: 29 August 2013
15:49:31 [jeanne2]
chair: Jim Kelly
15:52:52 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:52:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kford
15:53:08 [jeanne]
rrsagent, meeting spans midnight
15:54:43 [jeanne]
present+ Kelly, Jan, Jim, Jeanne, Greg, Kim
15:55:37 [jeanne]
regrets+ Simon
15:58:26 [AllanJ]
AllanJ has joined #ua
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scribe: allanj
15:59:39 [AllanJ]
topic: 1.8.12 reflow - level determination
16:00:10 [AllanJ]
from shawn: should be A not AA
16:00:50 [shawn]
based on
16:01:14 [jeanne]
Today's Master document <-
16:01:22 [Kim]
Kim has joined #ua
16:03:43 [jeanne]
Today's Master document <-
16:06:38 [AllanJ]
group feels that AA is fine, more information is welcome
16:07:28 [AllanJ]
topic: shawn comment delete 1.4.2
16:07:56 [shawn]
[ Shawn feels discussion wihtout background is not useful ]
16:09:50 [AllanJ]
topic: 1.8.12 reflow again
16:11:06 [AllanJ]
sh: discussing email. understanding users with lowvision and dyslexia and text customization
16:11:15 [AllanJ]
s/lowvision/low vision
16:11:30 [AllanJ]
kf: is there something else we need to consider
16:11:41 [AllanJ]
sh: email was quick
16:11:51 [AllanJ]
... things need to be added
16:12:01 [AllanJ]
... complexities to consider
16:12:38 [AllanJ]
kf: start smaller and work to the bigger issues
16:13:23 [shawn]
16:13:38 [AllanJ]
js: zoom is basic level A
16:13:49 [AllanJ]
... advanced zoom is AA
16:14:00 [AllanJ]
sh: references research
16:15:58 [AllanJ]
sh: avoiding scrolling is the 3rd highest rating, 1st was text size
16:16:10 [AllanJ]
... EO has also been researching
16:18:07 [AllanJ]
kp: scrolling is important to the RSI community also
16:18:26 [AllanJ]
... would be happy to move to A
16:18:45 [AllanJ]
jr: text rescaling or whole page rescaling
16:19:37 [AllanJ]
sh: mostly scaling blocks of text - separate from navigation.
16:20:02 [AllanJ]
jr: text resize, rescale viewport are different
16:20:17 [AllanJ]
... this will be very hard for browser to do
16:20:58 [AllanJ]
... text, images, etc all rescale at the same time. hard to do without horizontal scrolling
16:21:18 [AllanJ]
jr: if text only ok at A, but not whole viewport
16:21:50 [AllanJ]
gl: but if UA want to do reflow on viewport nothing prevents them from doing it.
16:22:05 [AllanJ]
... "at least text" wraps
16:22:21 [AllanJ]
jr: "reflowable text content"
16:22:41 [AllanJ]
... sometimes author says "don't reflow"
16:23:08 [AllanJ]
gl: could use user-stylesheets to override reflow.
16:23:26 [AllanJ]
sh: this is only on html, not pdf
16:23:46 [AllanJ]
gl: will not help folks with pdf
16:24:33 [AllanJ]
sh: this must cover pdf
16:25:21 [AllanJ]
kf: do we have implementations?
16:25:27 [AllanJ]
sh: yes
16:26:06 [AllanJ]
gl: 1.8.3 add ", overriding author specified wrapping settings"
16:26:17 [shawn]
implementation: at least Opera. plus all browsers with user style sheets
16:26:38 [jeanne]
GL: Microsoft Word draft mode, Browsers can turn off styling
16:26:41 [AllanJ]
gl: word draft mode, in most browsers turn off styling
16:26:45 [shawn]
1.8.12 delete "reflowable"
16:27:07 [shawn]
text content
16:27:28 [jeanne]
+1 to delete reflowable
16:28:03 [shawn]
and change to level A
16:28:12 [greg]
Add: ", overriding any values specified by the author."
16:28:47 [greg]
("overriding" and "author" are links to the glossary.)
16:29:31 [AllanJ]
pdf reflow:
16:30:00 [AllanJ]
gl: some option, wrap to window. Word also has wrap to window
16:30:23 [jeanne]
1.8.12 Reflowing Zoom:
16:30:23 [jeanne]
The user can specify that when text content in a graphical viewport rescales, it reflows so that one dimension of the content fits within the height or width of the viewport, overriding any values specified by the author. (Level AA)
16:30:45 [AllanJ]
jr: this is just reflow, no reflow zoom
16:30:53 [shawn]
[ Shawn agrees reflow regardless of zoom]
16:31:05 [AllanJ]
gl: right.
16:31:08 [greg]
The user can specify that text content in a graphical viewport reflows so that one dimension of the content fits within the height or width of the viewport, overriding any values specified by the author. (Level AA)
16:32:04 [AllanJ]
gl: stem - Reflow Text
16:32:40 [AllanJ]
kp: +1 to A
16:32:53 [AllanJ]
gl: need to fix examples
16:33:11 [AllanJ]
js: examples already talk about it.
16:33:19 [AllanJ]
js: need pdf example
16:37:29 [shawn]
...lines of text go beyond the visible window (or viewport) and people have to scroll back and forth horizontally to read the text. ...For some people with disabilities, it is impossible to adequately read and comprehend text that requires such scrolling. Finding and activating scrollbars, then finding the next words in the sentence requires more effort. This causes a lose of reading flow and
16:37:29 [shawn]
degrades comprehension, especially for people who have general difficulties in understanding written text....
16:38:36 [AllanJ]
sh: use any of this language
16:40:50 [AllanJ]
sh: suggests rewording - The user can specify that text content in a graphical viewport reflows so that the content fits within width of the viewport, overriding any values specified by the author.
16:40:53 [shawn]
q+ to suggest try width and check with Richard Ishida or other I18N folk
16:41:04 [shawn]
ack me
16:41:04 [Zakim]
shawn, you wanted to suggest try width and check with Richard Ishida or other I18N folk
16:42:13 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to check with r12a on need for vertical fit of 1.8.12
16:42:13 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-878 - Check with r12a on need for vertical fit of 1.8.12 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-09-05].
16:42:31 [shawn]
s/ sh: suggests rewording/ sh: suggests taking out height/
16:43:41 [jeanne]
+1 for level A
16:43:57 [jeanne]
JR and JA for level A
16:44:54 [AllanJ]
resolution: Text Reflow: The user can specify that text content in a graphical viewport reflows so that one dimension of the content fits within the height or width of the viewport, overriding any values specified by the author. (Level A)
16:47:54 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to renumber 1.8.12 to Level A, and adjust the summary.
16:47:54 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-879 - Renumber 1.8.12 to level a, and adjust the summary. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-09-05].
16:48:24 [AllanJ]
gl: is turning off all styles enough, or get specific
16:48:38 [greg]
I'm concerned that browsers will claim they comply because the user can override author nowrap by turning off *all* author formatting, even though that may make the page unusable.
16:48:50 [AllanJ]
jr: not an issue
16:49:56 [AllanJ]
sh: good thing to consider, add to implementing--best practice to the wrap without changing other stuff rather than turn off all formatting
16:50:26 [AllanJ]
js: what about on mobile, no feature to turn off all styles?
16:52:34 [shawn]
zakim, code?
16:52:34 [Zakim]
the conference code is 8294323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, shawn
16:53:43 [jeanne]
16:56:04 [jeanne]
present+ ShawnHenry-guest
16:56:25 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:56:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jeanne
16:57:00 [jeanne]
Topic: SH2 - 1.4.2
16:57:21 [jeanne]
scribe: jeanne
16:57:28 [jeanne]
SH2: I do not think 1.4.2 Preserving Size Distinctions is necessary at all. I'll provide some support for that perspective from a survey (introduced at <>).
16:59:45 [Eric]
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17:00:19 [AllanJ]
s/topic: 1.8.12 reflow again/topic: SH1 1.8.12 reflow
17:02:50 [AllanJ]
17:03:54 [AllanJ]
1.4.2 Preserving Size Distinctions:
17:03:56 [AllanJ]
he user can specify whether or not distinctions in the size of rendered text are preserved when that text is rescaled (e.g. headers continue to be larger than body text). (Level A)
17:04:21 [AllanJ]
sh: there are no implementations. may be an extension.
17:04:50 [AllanJ]
... users should be able to change size at the element level, then this is not necessary
17:05:23 [AllanJ]
gl: in word, reflow to window, or draft and everything is same size.
17:05:58 [AllanJ]
js: this is something Wayne Dick proposed. this would make everything the same size.
17:07:03 [AllanJ]
sh: user can set text size then covered.
17:07:24 [AllanJ]
js: what have something on customizing text sizing
17:08:06 [AllanJ]
kp: wayne was adamant about this.
17:08:52 [AllanJ]
gl: reads 1.4.1, but does not get specific about keeping all text the same size
17:09:06 [AllanJ]
... 1.4.2 extends 1.4.1
17:09:29 [AllanJ]
js: what about bumping it down a level?
17:09:47 [AllanJ]
sh: will check with wayne, then come back to it.
17:10:03 [shawn]
ACTION: shawn to work with Wayne on 1.4.2
17:10:03 [trackbot]
Error finding 'shawn'. You can review and register nicknames at <>.
17:10:28 [jeanne]
action: jeanne will discuss with shawn and Wayne on 1.4.2 and come back with a proposal
17:10:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-880 - Will discuss with shawn and wayne on 1.4.2 and come back with a proposal [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-09-05].
17:11:22 [shawn]
17:11:37 [AllanJ]
topic: SH3 1.4.1 redux challenges, etc
17:11:43 [jeanne]
3. I'll have several suggestions (and challenges) for 1.4.1 Configure Rendered Text, for example:
17:11:43 [jeanne]
3.a. I think 1.4.1 will need to be more specific -- for example, will need to specify range of fonts and colors to be available.
17:11:43 [jeanne]
3.b. I think character spacing can go down to Level AA, and possibly line spacing, too.
17:11:43 [jeanne]
3.c. There are several other things I suggest for Levels A, AA, and AAA.
17:12:54 [AllanJ]
sh: element level customization is most important.
17:12:58 [shawn]
Element [type] level Customization
17:13:25 [AllanJ]
gl: element type customization
17:13:57 [AllanJ]
does user styles cover this
17:14:03 [AllanJ]
sh: yes
17:14:22 [AllanJ]
gl: yes for html, but not for pdf (no user style sheets)
17:14:40 [AllanJ]
sh: the point is PDF would have to do this.
17:15:11 [AllanJ]
... pdf has tags, can structure those to control presentation
17:15:43 [Eric]
Eric needs to leave. Will return later
17:15:54 [AllanJ]
kf: pushback, this seems aspirational
17:16:22 [AllanJ]
gl: things that implement stylesheets could easily comply.
17:17:05 [AllanJ]
sh: lets all things with no stylesheets less accessible
17:17:29 [AllanJ]
kp: if we had SC wording and IER would be helpful
17:17:51 [AllanJ]
... if we have a proposal we can take it up next week,
17:18:49 [AllanJ]
kp: have lots of questions.
17:19:17 [AllanJ]
kf: this will take TIME, must be last call in Sept
17:19:37 [AllanJ]
js: will work with shawn to get it done
17:20:29 [AllanJ]
kp: want user perspective, good examples - use cases
17:21:23 [shawn]
17:22:30 [AllanJ]
sh: importance of printing customized text. I increased font size I want to print them.
17:23:16 [AllanJ]
kf: need fully baked proposals
17:25:16 [AllanJ]
ja: no printing SC currently (loosing text on left edge of page is issue), was deferred to UAAG next
17:25:59 [AllanJ]
sh: in 1.4.1
17:27:10 [AllanJ]
... what if browser only offers 2 sizes
17:27:37 [AllanJ]
ja: for browser they already do with current settings, and user style sheets
17:27:48 [AllanJ]
gl: this doesn't cover other user agents
17:28:09 [AllanJ]
sh: you have to do this
17:28:39 [AllanJ]
... for AA need to choose line spacing at 1, 1.5 and 2
17:29:01 [AllanJ]
... AAA character spacing in .1 ems
17:29:16 [AllanJ]
gl: want a minimum set
17:29:26 [AllanJ]
sh: yes have a draft ready
17:29:46 [AllanJ]
... need to be more specific, will be a challenge
17:30:21 [shawn]
17:32:10 [AllanJ]
sh: actual increments, points, ems, %% need more research
17:32:23 [AllanJ]
... perhaps this is not necessary
17:32:47 [AllanJ]
... browsers, pdf, etc already do increments
17:33:25 [AllanJ]
... are there other UAs (ebooks, closed systems, etc) that this would need to apply to.
17:34:14 [AllanJ]
sh: color contrast (f/b). best for users, easiest for wording
17:34:37 [AllanJ]
... users can select f/b color from the palet of the OS.
17:34:48 [AllanJ]
what about things without an OS.
17:35:23 [AllanJ]
what about a devise (ebook reader) without OS
17:35:48 [AllanJ]
gl: this thing runs on hardware
17:36:23 [AllanJ]
js: kindle on IOS allows no color changes
17:37:12 [AllanJ]
sh: if UAAG applies other devices then you need to word to include these devices
17:37:43 [AllanJ]
js: uaag would apply to these type of apps
17:37:56 [AllanJ]
jr: epub is webbased
17:38:37 [AllanJ]
gl: kindle app for IOS UA or not UA
17:39:05 [AllanJ]
kp: yes it is
17:39:35 [AllanJ]
kp: caution, industry may push back
17:39:55 [Eric]
Eric has returned
17:40:17 [AllanJ]
gl: edge case, need to call out in definition of UA, include ereaders as example
17:40:56 [AllanJ]
sh: you have to be able to choose color from OS
17:41:30 [AllanJ]
gl: don't say OS we say platform...hardware, os, other layers.
17:41:42 [AllanJ]
sh: font"
17:41:55 [AllanJ]
17:43:19 [AllanJ]
sh: need 2 serif, 2 sans-serif fonts
17:43:34 [AllanJ]
jr: these seem to be edge cases
17:43:52 [AllanJ]
sh: go with the simple
17:44:01 [greg]
I think Shawn is saying that the SC would set no minimum on UA in the marginal case of where there is no OS, so not platform-supported fonts. The UA would provide it's own fonts, and there would be no minimal set specified by the SC.
17:45:40 [greg]
Scribe: greg
17:46:27 [greg]
Greg: The correct way to word it would probably in the form of "the set of system fonts, or this specified set, whichever is larger".
17:47:00 [jeanne]
JS: The real problem is not when there are no system fonts, it is the platforms that do not expose the fonts to the applications
17:47:06 [shawn]
shawn encourages you to read:
17:47:07 [shawn]
* Text Customization for Readability <>
17:47:07 [shawn]
* Understanding Users' Needs to Customize Text Display <>
17:51:56 [jeanne]
zakim, who's here?
17:51:56 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()11:30AM has not yet started, jeanne
17:51:57 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Eric, Kim, AllanJ, Zakim, RRSAgent, greg, jeanne, shawn, trackbot
17:52:19 [jeanne]
present+ eric
18:00:07 [greg]
Discussion of priorities for the remaining time today.
18:31:46 [Eric]
Eric signing off
19:47:59 [jeanne]
20:10:49 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
21:57:31 [jeanne]
5.1.2 Intent - new
21:57:40 [greg]
Most content specifications include features important to users with disabilities. Users may find it difficult or impossible to use a product that fails to support those features. Conformance claim documents list the technologies that the user agent fully supports, such as WAI-ARIA, so that users can make informed decisions about whether or not they will be able to use, and therefore should...
21:57:42 [greg]
...install, a new product or version of that product.
22:04:21 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to convert links to the W3C format for Bibliographies
22:04:21 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-881 - Convert links to the w3c format for bibliographies [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-09-05].
22:05:58 [kford]
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22:21:59 [jeanne]
Today's Master doc <-
22:48:10 [jeanne]
action: Kelly to address with UAWG adding "description" to 4.1.6 (KF, see review notes from F2F day 3)
22:48:10 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-882 - Address with uawg adding "description" to 4.1.6 (kf, see review notes from f2f day 3) [on Kelly Ford - due 2013-09-05].
22:48:35 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
22:48:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jeanne
23:08:04 [jeanne]
action: Kelly to bring up SC 3.2.5 Settings Change Confirmation to the group.
23:08:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-883 - Bring up sc 3.2.5 settings change confirmation to the group. [on Kelly Ford - due 2013-09-05].
23:15:08 [kford]
We need to fix this sentence.
23:15:10 [kford]
'While it may improve accessibility for some users on some pages to have the page to***delete*** set focus to specific link***s*** or field***s*** when the page loads, it can also be detrimental for some users, and therefore users need to***delete*** control of this behavior.
23:24:20 [Jan]
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23:37:20 [Jan]
Unrecognizable content: When success criteria require authoring tools to treat web content according to semantic criteria, the success criteria do not apply when these semantics are missing (e.g., text that describes an image is only considered to be a text alternative when this role is encoded within markup).
23:38:38 [Jan]
23:40:07 [Jan]
23:41:39 [AllanJ]
js: put this information from the definition in the introduction and link to the defintion of recognize
23:42:42 [Jan]
UAAG 2.0 success criteria only apply to web content that can be *recognized*.
23:43:27 [Jan]
UAAG 2.0 success criteria only apply to web content that can be *recognized* by user agents.
23:45:00 [AllanJ]
put this in a new section
23:49:57 [Jan]
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23:50:31 [greg]
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23:50:55 [greg]
User agents are not expected to comply with success criteria when content document does not include information needed to satisfy the criteria (e.g. neither HTML nor video metadata provide any way to notify a user agent that a video contains flashing images, keyboard shortcuts are implemented using Javascript so they are invisible to the user agent, or an author denotes a heading only with...
23:50:56 [greg]
...larger font rather than heading tags).
23:52:12 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
23:52:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate AllanJ
23:53:41 [jeanne]
23:54:44 [jeanne]
00:12:55 [Jan]
scribe: Jan
00:13:00 [Jan]
Things still to do
00:13:27 [Jan]
Reconcile table of contents
00:13:40 [Jan]
Consistent stems list (Kim)
00:13:52 [Jan]
Fix resources at end of document (Jeanne)
00:14:23 [Jan]
Read the glossary (Everyone)
00:14:54 [Jan]
Finish making editorial comments (e.g. from EO) (Jeanne)
00:15:29 [Jan]
Reply to all outstanding comments (Jeanne)
00:16:13 [Jan]
Renumbering SCs because they changed priority (Jeanne)
00:17:02 [Jan]
Bibliography (Jeanne)
00:17:46 [Jan]
Any other applicability notes to address (Jan)
00:19:57 [Jan]
Kim can reconcile Table of contents
00:21:14 [Jan]
JS: Aiming for Sept 24
00:22:33 [Jan]
Look up links in Resources
00:28:31 [Jan]
CSS changes to look more like ATAG2 but with WCAG2 type spacing (Jan)
00:30:16 [Jan]
Kelly to finish GL's 1 and 2 ("sanity check")
00:34:51 [AllanJ]
removing @@ from doc-- still some floating around
00:35:01 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
00:35:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate AllanJ
00:38:06 [Jan]
Resolution: the Last Call will be 6 weeks
00:38:50 [AllanJ]
00:39:16 [AllanJ]
table of contents
00:39:18 [AllanJ]
00:39:26 [AllanJ]
proof glossary
00:39:35 [AllanJ]
css changes - jan
00:40:07 [Jan]
Look through open action items (Kelly)
00:41:01 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
00:41:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jeanne
00:41:17 [AllanJ]
close action-798 8/29/2013
00:41:25 [AllanJ]
close action-798
00:41:25 [trackbot]
Closed action-798.
00:41:41 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
00:41:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate AllanJ
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