Internationalization Working Group Teleconference

28 Mar 2013


See also: IRC log


aphillip, fsasaki, Richard, +1.303.945.aaaa, Norbert, Yves
Addison Phillips
Addison Phillips, fsasaki


trackbot, prepare teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 28 March 2013

<scribe> Scribe: Addison Phillips

<scribe> ScribeNick: aphillip


Action Items

ACTION-170: richard: ported document to HTML5

<trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-170 Coordinate with richard regarding KLReq.

ACTION-170: improved English, sent comments off, had responses
... waiting for all authors to join IG before we proceed
... encouraging folks to join quickly so that next week we can publish FPWD for wide review

close ACTION-194

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-194 Poll for heartburn for keeping call at 1600Z.

ACTION-196: due end of April

<trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-196 Request fequest feedback on ruby use cases with an eye towards publishing updated version in two weeks.

Info Share

<r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Html-bidi-isolation-new

richard: largely rewritten this
... have comments from Aharon
... need to integrate those still
... made lots of progress

addison: others should comment?

richard: yes, but there will be changes

I18N-ISSUE-246: computing storage limits in ITS

felix: two issues here
... 246 and 247

<fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2013JanMar/0368.html

felix: 247 is line break type
... addison's email in the thread above

<fsasaki> scribe: fsasaki

addison: didn't seem to make sense to me to say that there is a default encoding
... if the encoding attribute is not here, you can say many things about what the count is in - but it is not actually said in the spec
... the counting thing doesn't make sense, not very well described
... just worked on a unicode FAQ about counting
... understand the original goal
... but in many use cases you cannot count. e.g. in utf-16 you cannot have odd number byte count
... so make the code unit count in the encoding
... or in other cases you count graphemes or other items
... I have seen various cases like that
... graphemes are hard because there is some impresise things
... but code units are reasonable to count
... esp. with utf-8

norbert: you say the xxx is implementation defined

addison: ITS does not define what the yyy means

norbert: addison's statement is a correct summary of the state of affairs
... question is it is useful in the spec

felix: would the re-write be useful?

yves: originaal intent was just to mesure the storage
... e.g. display was not a use case here
... agree that reference to byte is probably not right
... would be fine to use a kind of unit that would be not byte
... beyond that not sure what the problem is in additoin

addision: norbert was trying to say what we require in specs
... would be fine if we did that
... but ITS gave reasons why you don't do that
... if you can't define taht, you should spell out it is implementation defined
... you cannot say that utf-8 is the default

yves: in the spec we say the utf-8 encoding attribute is utf-8
... the implementation using that is not the ITS processor
... the implementations may or may not support utf-8
... I understand we want to encourage utf-8
... I thikn stefan wanted to convey a "should" in his not to encourage thtat
... but the ITS processor is not processing that
... but at the same time we want to have a default value
... it is just a piece of information

addision: if the attribute is ommitted it is utf-8?

yves: the string, not the encoding

felix trying to explain why "semantics" is not an intend of ITS here and in many places

addison: understand, but the ITS processor has values and gives them to a translation system
... you want to define the semantics of the values enough so that you have meaning
... that is enough for non unicode, multi byte encodings
... it is more problemantic if I need to convey other types of limits
... if the link between character encoding and xxx is not clear defined it is a problem

yves: agree that reference to bytes is an issue, code units would be ok

addison: you can use utf-16 or utf-32 to enforce that

<aphillip> A storageEncoding attribute. It contains the name of the character encoding form used to calculate the number of code units of the selected text (cf. CharMod). The name MUST be one of the names or aliases listed in the IANA Character Sets registry [IANA Character Sets]. If omitted, the character encoding is undefined and the storageSize attribute's interpretation is implementation defined. Interpretation of the storageEncoding attribute is implementation [CUT]

scribe missed norbert's comment

(norbert, feel free to add)

addison: above was my suggesstion
... say that the whole thing is implementation defined

yves: the values are defeind by ITS
... we communicate the values to the tool
... we need a default value

addision: the ITS process does jsut pass the information?

yves: right

addision: is it better to have an empty value or utf-8?

yves: having utf-8 is better
... same for other ITS items

<aphillip> A storageSize attribute. It contains the maximum number of units the text of the selected node is allowed in storage. Units are generally code units in a given character encoding. Interpretation is implementation defined.

yves: I can try to rephrase the note that stephan was putting out, taking in account the change for the byte

felix: sounds good, let's see where we are next week

<aphillip> ACTION: yves: coordinate with stephen et al in ITS to phrase the text [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/28-i18n-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Error finding 'yves'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/International/track/users>.


<aphillip> felix: the other issue is 247

<aphillip> ... line-break type

<aphillip> ... not resolved yet, but not aware of current state


<aphillip> addison: norbert, your take?

<aphillip> norbert: catching up... not used to this type of spec

<aphillip> yves: application checks the length might run into linebreak

<aphillip> ... probably normalized as \n

<aphillip> ... but original application might use, e.g. \r\n

<aphillip> ... so count could be different

<aphillip> norbert: so you could write into spec that it could be \n, \r, \r\n, etc.

<aphillip> ... what about <br>?

<aphillip> yves: there is a list of values in the spec

<Yves_> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-its20-20121206/#storagesize

<aphillip> yves: here's the link to that part of the spec

"The possible values are: cr for CARRIAGE RETURN (U+000D), lf for LINE FEED (U+000A), crlf for CARRIAGE RETURN (U+000D) followed by LINE FEED (U+000A), or nel for NEXT LINE (U+0085). The default value is lf."

<aphillip> yves: can work on writing update of the note

<aphillip> felix: can you (yves) work on updating and coordinating, and if we need to, have another shared call next week?

<aphillip> (general agreement)

<aphillip> felix: one more minute on ITS issues?


<aphillip> felix: above list on winter@

<aphillip> ... this is about directionality

<aphillip> ... tried to implement your proposals

<aphillip> ... let me know what you think

<aphillip> ACTION: addison: remind folks to review ITS item in the winter 388 email for next time (4 April) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/28-i18n-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-200 - Remind folks to review ITS item in the winter 388 email for next time (4 April) [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-04-04].

<aphillip> felix: related to three comments about direction

<scribe> scribe: fsasaki

<aphillip> richard: which version of ITS to look at?


<aphillip> ... link from yves above doesn't have it


<aphillip> ... what's the undated link

<aphillip> felix: see above


addison: no discussion this week,


addison: anything to discuss this week?


richard: comment for felix

<aphillip> richard: one more comment for felix

richard: "quote" in example 48
... needs change in example 47 and 45 as well

felix: thanks, will do

<scribe> ACTION: felix to change example 47 and 45 in ITS spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/28-i18n-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-201 - Change example 47 and 45 in ITS spec [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-04-04].

<aphillip> REMINDER: next week at 1500 UTC

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: addison: remind folks to review ITS item in the winter 388 email for next time (4 April) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/28-i18n-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: felix to change example 47 and 45 in ITS spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/28-i18n-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: yves: coordinate with stephen et al in ITS to phrase the text [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/28-i18n-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2013-03-28 16:49:48 $

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Found Scribe: Addison Phillips
Found ScribeNick: aphillip
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Scribes: Addison Phillips, fsasaki
ScribeNicks: aphillip, fsasaki
Default Present: aphillip, fsasaki, Richard, +1.303.945.aaaa, Norbert, Yves
Present: aphillip fsasaki Richard +1.303.945.aaaa Norbert Yves
Regrets: Aharon
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Mar/0024.html
Found Date: 28 Mar 2013
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2013/03/28-i18n-minutes.html
People with action items: addison felix folks remind yves

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