W3C

Internationalization Working Group Teleconference

21 Mar 2013

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
aharon, matial, aphillip, JcK, Richard, Norbert, fsasaki, fantasai
Regrets
Chair
Addison Phillips
Scribe
aharon, fsasaki

Contents


Agenda

Action Items

aphillip: action items
... did not get a lot of action items done

<r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open

aharon: did not make any progress on bidi html5 improvements note

Norbert: action 149 in about 3 weeks

ahphillip: action 150 becoming pressing, but have not had chance

aphillip: no progress on action 170

richard: document is pretty much ready for review

aphillip: no progress on 174
... no progress on 183
... will talk about 194

<aphillip> close ACTION-195

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-195 Send Richard notes about IE behaviour wrt direction.

aharon: sent notes on IE for action 195 today

richard: no chance to get to action 196

Info Share

richard: mlw workshop went well, well done Felix and colleagues

<fsasaki> kudos to r12a for *his* work! not only in the previous workshops but also in rome

richard: breakout to discuss personal names, mark davis was there...

how to handle personal names, ontologies

aphillip: unicode conference call for papers is now

WTITMA

aphillip: is this (UTC 1600) a good time?

richard: until when?

aphillip: indefinitely

matial: not good for me after summer time comes in

<aphillip> mati: -1, prefer same wall time rather than same utc time

<aphillip> richard: 1500 utc

richard: prefer same wall time

<fsasaki> +1

<fsasaki> actually, both fine by me

aphillip: resolved to move to 1500

<aphillip> ACTION: addison: move meeting to 1500 utc following change to summer time [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/21-i18n-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-197 - Move meeting to 1500 utc following change to summer time [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-03-28].

<aphillip> ... for first meeting in april

aphillip: move to 1500 not next week but the following week

caseless matching in css3 fonts

<aphillip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2013JanMar/0347.html

aphillip: c+s may not match

<aphillip> example: a font with a german name such as heiƟ wouldn't match HEISS because C+S case fold is only "heis"

aphillip: the concern is that you want your case-folded names to match the other token, and both have to be case-folded the same way...

you have to know that you have to allocate a little more storage for the case-folded version...

<fantasai> fantasai: Is the concern that the casefld will be incorrectly implemented, or that it won't match when correctly implemented?

a little spurios, since other factors can change the length anyway

JcK; worrying about this particular case "borders on the irrational"

<fantasai> Norbert quoting Jonathan: should require normalization if doing casefold

<fantasai> ?: Trying to do casefold without normalization is all sorts of trouble.

<fantasai> JcK: Maybe right rule is to normalize and casefold for comparison, even if the string is not normalized itself

JcK: maybe the right rule is to normalize around case folds

<fantasai> ?: A little more complicated, but certainly more reliable

<fantasai> aphillip: Would be remarkable use of normalization simply because not used anywhere else

<fantasai> JcK: Should either not casefold at all or normalize and casefold

<fantasai> aphillip: Don't think we want to change recommendation of which casefold to use

<fantasai> aphillip: Second quesiton is whether to normalize

<fantasai> aphillip: efficiency more problematic for normalization than casefolding

<fantasai> aphillip: We've brought it up with Selectors, other things, een told enough times we're not going to get normalization

fantasai: in all other cases, you had to have normalization span the entire platform
... not sure that this can even been done
... in this particular case, it's not about interaction of css with some other Web technology but about interaction of CSS with font files via intermediary agent of OS font APIs

you could require normaliza and case fold, and it would have no effect on the rest of platform

<fsasaki> scribe: fsasaki

addison: conclusions?
... need to understand the rules for common font format
... there seem to be limitations

fantasai: normalization and case folding makes most sense to me
... in this particular case

addison: nothing against including normalization
... objections against case folding should go away too

jck: thinking of the argument for normalization we had for IDN
... These strings are very short, I don't see an efficiency problem

addison: so probably both normalization and case folding are the right thing to do
... there should be a special note saying here is the limited case where we are having normalization

<JcK> In particular, these are comparisons for very short strings, not operations on very large blocks of text. For such short strings, The efficiency loss is trivial and the comparisons will work much more predictably

<aphillip> ACTION: addison: write back to CSS-fonts about casefolding and normalization, allowing both with health warning (see minutes) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/21-i18n-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-198 - Write back to CSS-fonts about casefolding and normalization, allowing both with health warning (see minutes) [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-03-28].

css3-text-decoration skipping spaces

<aphillip> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Mar/0023.html

addison: this is about space skip, text decoration for underlining
... above link is summary of what I got back from them
... one of discussion topics: some langauges don't use spaces
... so if you want to (scribe missed)

fantasai: reading comment esp. from markus
... propose to do something simple
... do something for languages that have spaces
... if the language has no spaces, you don't want to create a gap
... one thing I didn't understand: how do I specifiy other than linking to CLDR query page?

addison: defined elsewhere, like the regex one

fantasai: does the regex include entire Z category?

norbert: javascript has its own ws category

<aphillip> ACTION: addison: seek clarification on [:Whitespace:] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/21-i18n-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-199 - Seek clarification on [:Whitespace:] [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-03-28].

fantasai: proposal is to skip all characters in unicode category z

addison: minus the vertical white space

fantasai: the word separater characters are:

<fantasai> space (U+0020), the no-break space (U+00A0), the Ethiopic word space (U+1361), the Aegean word separators (U+10100,U+10101), the Ugaritic word divider (U+1039F), and the Phoenician Word Separator (U+1091F)

<fantasai> plus whatever is regex White_Space

fantasai: that is the current proposal
... we can skip e.g. over blank
... do we also skip over visible spaces like U+1361?

richard: skipping over blank might be an issue too

addison: there are joining items in punctuation you might not want to skip either

norbert: e.g. within numbers

<aphillip> foo<a0>:

<aphillip> 1<a0>000

discussion on underlining in Ethopian word spaces

<Norbert> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr44/#White_Space

<r12a> fantasai, do you know that you just dropped off the call?

<fantasai> "conference is restricted" :/

<matial> me too

<fantasai> So any conclusions on text-decoration-skip?

<fantasai> The definition I have is the one above

<aphillip> I will circle back to unicore

<fantasai> the open question is what to do with the visible word separators

<aphillip> and we will take up again next week

<fantasai> ok

<aphillip> yep

language ranges with multiple subtags

<aphillip> norbert: looking for end-to-end language negotiation example that uses script codes

<aphillip> ... or other subtags defined by bcp 47

<aphillip> richard we have some

<r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/getting-started/characters

<r12a> look at the chinese version

<aphillip> norbert: please send examples to list

<aphillip> richard: see above

AOB?

<r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/getting-started/characters.zh-hant.php?changelang=zh-hant

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: addison: move meeting to 1500 utc following change to summer time [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/21-i18n-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: addison: seek clarification on [:Whitespace:] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/21-i18n-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: addison: write back to CSS-fonts about casefolding and normalization, allowing both with health warning (see minutes) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/21-i18n-minutes.html#action02]
 
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2013-03-21 19:52:45 $