Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference
02 Nov 2012 Minutes


We worked on the rough draft Preliminary Review|Evaluation: Checking the Accessibility of a Web Page.

On 1 November, we discussed:

Today we started by going over the various inputs — smart analysis simplified from Wayne & Tom, old WAI page, Denis' edits & Ian's input from Al, and some other old notes — and listing the checks we might want to include.

We liked the idea of encouraging people who are new to all this to try the checks first on a good BAD page, then on a bad BAD page, to see what the results should be.

When the time comes to decide what to put in the quick checks, we suggested try for not requiring any tool download or specific browser. (This is recorded in the discussion tab). We noted the problems with suggesting that people try a screen reader if they don't know how to use it.

Much of the discussion is not minuted because we edited on-the-fly the Preliminary Evaluation wiki page.

Finally, we developed a rough template of the type of information that we are including for each check; it is "Template for draft item" in the discussion tab.


Ian, Suzette, Vicki, Sylvie, Shawn, Helle, Shadi(some), Vivienne(observer), Jason Kiss(observer)


<shawn> current draft of prelim http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Web_Accessibility_Preliminary_Evaluation

<shawn> OLD; page: http://www.w3.org/WAI/eval/preliminary.html

Shawn: let's look at the old and the preliminary side by side

<shawn> CHANGE that - the old one (with minor updates) http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Preliminary_Eval_-_old_notes

<shawn> that has the version from the WAI site, with minor edits from Denis. plus list from Al via Ian

Ian: question from the introduction - says "do not need to know markup languages" 2nd para, 2nd sentence. This may be a difference between the preliminary and indepth reviews.

Shawn: we need to clarify betwene the 5 point and the 'more'. With the 5 point we want to make it that you don't need markup, and the other you might. the 'more checks' you need to clarify what else you need to know.

Suzette: we need to clarify this as in the 5 points you can look at the screen, but then you might need to use an additional tool like a list of headings and WAVE. there is a disparity between what you see visually and what is underneath

Ian: if you had to install it, it wouldn't be on the first list, but if you had to it would be on the 2nd

Shawn: html markup you can use without installation.
... there are some things that you'd need to be able to look at the visual rendering of the page.
... question for Sylvie - if you are asked to do a quick check, what do you do
... some things are easy like the fact if there are no headings, you can tell

Suzette: if there is a browser that brings up a list of headings

Shawn: there is the question that some people can't install the browser of their choice, or can't download toolbars

Suzette: WAVE has a new version in BETA release

Shawn: need to look at criteria for the 5 steps - doesn't require any tools to download, or a specific browser

Suzette: one of the sentences says you can do these things without knowing any html. so we need to think about what you can do with no tools available

Shadi: question about how developers who don't know anything about accessibility that there are some basic things you can check
... requirement is great for managers, - maybe for the 5 minute

Shawn: we are seeing if the user can do some checks without knowledge and downloading tools, and then there is the larger one

Suzette: 5 minute one is for the user, and a different one for the developer who knows technical but not accessibility

Shawn: we were thinking of first making out long list and then going back to make the short list
... examine pages using the graphical browser
... we want to come up with 1 list for 'maybe' items that we've pulled in together

Shadi: questioned the use of some of the items if they are not WCAG requirements

Ian: reading from the Preliminary Evaluation Old notes page and comparing it with the list
... discussion about the inclusion of the re-sizing without horizontal scroll bars

Shadi: using screen reader, the side benefit was awareness-raising - more than a test

Sylvie: people say that it is not recommended to ask inexperienced screen reader user to test unless they are trained properly

thanks for the correction, Sylvie - that's what I meant

Shawn: looking at Wayne's smart analysis

<shawn> next look at from Wayne http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Prelim_Eval_input:_Smart_analysis_simplified

Shawn: group feels they have included the information correctly from the input they have received so far

Suzette: suggested we start with keyboard access

ian: 2 tests in 1 - using only tab key to access all controls and they have good visual focus indication. The space bar is to document how you should activate the control - testing. WAI Aria - giving something that wasn't a focusable element a WAI Aria element role

Sylvie: also drop-down menus you have to use special methods to select the drop-down. Don't know if the tab key is sufficient for testing.

Ian: depends on what you are trying to text
... test not text

Vicki: depends also on the group you're thinking of

Ian: can break down the tests more - first 1 - can you access all the controls, 2) do they behave in the way you'd expect. For the 5 steps - you might want to take the tab control first.

Shawn: put that for the quick check. how do we explain the more advanced list

Sylvie: for forms, sometimes you press enter and you can't submit the form - don't know where to put this - maybe put it in forms

Shadi: sometimes forms are not easily recognizable as forms in the code

Sylvie: some websites stop you using the back key to go back a page, but must press a javascript button which might not be labelled

Shawn: reviewed items for keyboard access - rough notes
... shall we do this level of description - not polished - what do you do, what do you look for?

Sylvia: when we train people, when we ask them to test with the tab key, they don't know where they are because they don't see the focus - want to tell them not to panic when they can't find the focus

Shawn: different mechanisms are used in Opera - may have to mention browser limitations

Ian: on Mac you have to enable tabbing through links -by default you only tab through form controls - think Safari is the same on Windows

Shawn: when they use the validator to check headings, they may not find anything there. You need to run some of these tests on a good site first, so that you know what you should get

Suzette: using the BAD example to see how it should and should not work

Shawn: training idea - run the tests on the 2 sides of the BAD example and then have them go and test on other sites

<scribe> scribe: vivienne

ian: common thing on the lists is how to test - eg images. The tests are not great because of the inconsistencies because of how the browsers display.

Shawn: at the moment, the draft is checking with WAVE

Vivienne: perhaps just using WAVE doesn't give all of the information you require - such as css generated images

<Sylvie> Problems of quoting wave as tool for those who cannot read English.

Suzette: we may have to classify the checks - such as images that are links. You have the decision about whether the image is decorative or functional. there is also the aspect of images of text
... what you see is not necessarily what you get - try in some way to analyze what the image is, and what it is doing
... questioned IE8/9 as to whether the alt attribute is displayed - some use titles in the same way
... what do you do, how do you check

Ian: tests - WAVE, disabling images, showing the visible content for a link, identifies contrast issues with background images and foreground text, shows you problems using Windows high contrast mode to disable background images

Shawn: what about video/sound

Ian: checking to see if the transcript is linked, and if captions are present

Shawn: putting in multimedia as a separate issue - because it complicates it for the tester if the page doesn't have the multimedia

<shawn> now on http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Web_Accessibility_Preliminary_Evaluation

Shawn: finished with checking text descriptions for images

Suzette: what about images as links - what about the way that you test it. Images as links are important but I'm talking about the way you test for it. Regarding alt tag and link name.

Ian: can be covered in the link section
... better described as a link

Suzette: user sees it as an image

Vicki: you have to mention that if an image has a function - what you need to do

Ian: visually you see the text

Suzette: I've found that people get it wrong a lot
... they name the link in the alt text and the name of the link and it causes a stuttering effect - says it twice

Jason: the text that is actually an image - in the case that the image is the content of the link in that you don't want to describe the image, but rather the function

Shawn: see if it is covered under links. Follow Ian's example to see how it should work.

Sylvie: Headings for next item

Sylvia: change to page title

Shawn: covered under 2.4.2. for page titles

Sylvie: why page titles are important, how they are used: knowing where you are, ability to add to your bookmarks without having to write it out
... also used for search engine results
... they are important because they are the first information read by a screen reader - starts reading that before the page has loaded
... used for going between different tabs and windows - search engine results
... for people with motor disabilites they might have to type it again
... how to test - look at the window title bar - browser window - look to see if the title provides an indication as to which page of which site - page and site name

Vivienne: the order for reading - length of name for the page and the order in which it appears

Shawn: done for page titles

Suzette: the need for a unique page title is important also in checking pages

Shawn: when you have numerous pages open, you can only see a small portion of the title and the order is important
... might want to mention common failures

Jason: the look at the browser window title bar is user agent specific eg Operate vs Chrome you don't get a title bar. In IE9 you only get it on the tab. In the default presentation of the browser, they have changed the way it is presented.

Shawn: what is the easiest way to check it

Jason: IE & Firefox you get a tooltip requiring the use of the pointer

Sylvia: when you change tabs can you see the title

Jason: depends upon browser window and size of tab

Ian: content is relatively simple, but would it get in the top 5

Suzette: Firefox it is easy to check e.g. bookmark

Jason: also the back button you get a dropdown, but it is still cut off

Suzette: page title on its own may not be so important, but it is if you match it to your H1 and it is more easily recognized

Shawn: how important is it - depends upon the need or the context - medium
... next is headings

Sylvia: supermarket has the same title for every page and when you log on the whole navigation is the same and new information is very low.

Shawn: G141 and H42

Sylvie: how importance is properly nested headings: when you have a H2 and then a H4 you have a shortcut allows you to go to the next H4 or H3 heading and then when you type the shortcut to H4 and there is no H3, it doesn't work

Shawn: might point to a technique or success criteria - now has checking with WAVE and the validator
... what do you use if you can't see the visual rendering of the page?

Suzette: bring up a list of headings in the screen reader in the same way as links, WAVE shows the headings

Jason: if text is visually presented as a heading, but is not marked up as a heading - no programmatic representation

Shawn: you can tell if there are no headings or if it skips levels (that is AAA)

Sylvia: with Opera can't you type H to go from 1 heading to the next one

Shawn: a good first pass


<Suzette2> Shawn: Discussion of agenda for afternoon- decided to develop template for entries to Preliminary evaltuion

<Suzette2> Shawn: Other issues are to agree introductions to accessibility, improve invite to particiapte

<Suzette2> Group discussion: which element to do next, select visual focus

<Suzette2> Helle: issues where mouse hover, but not keyboard accessible

<Suzette2> example added to keyboard access issues

<Suzette2> Links - discussion on use of titles

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

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