See also: IRC log
<scribe> scribe: liam
<scribe> scribenick: liam
Jim Fuller: Senior engineer at MarkLogic, interested in XML!
Jirka Kosek: also interested in XML!
David Lewis: co-chair of multilingual web LT WG, at Trinity College Dublin, interested in provenance too.
Liam Quin: XML Activity Lead at W3C
Robin LaFontaine: from DeltaXML, it's our business focus
Steven Pembertom: chair of XForms, prev. chair of XHTML, on ODF committee too
scribe: interested to know if there's a standard here
Robin: this work originates from ODF where they want improved change tracking...
we came up with something more generic than just for ODF
principle here is, could XML benefit from having the ability to record previous versions or variants, track changes
What other useful areas might there be that this could apply to?
In the document area it's fairly obvious
e.g. if it's a technical manual I might be primarily interested in what's new
If you look at data, e.g. configuration files, would be nice to roll back to a previous version, or see changes
Audit trails, who changed what, when
So, is it worth having a standard?
ODF, DITA, DocBook, StrategicML (project planning)
Standard might also be useful for processing change
and XML editors
all tend to have their own mechanisms for tracking change, but they don't want to do something different from DITA and DocBook
daveL: another use case, localization, e.g. to know what new stuff needs to be translated
Daniel: work for paypal, picked this as I know the least about it!
Alex Russell: Work at Google, Here to understand what you're doing
Norm Walsh: produces tools (MarkLogic) and would like to have fewer ways of tracking change
Robin_La_F: we're not starting with a blank sheet, we have a proposal...
I don't say it's complete, but it represents maybe a person-year
1. must be easy to get the latest version
2. validation... if you have the latest document, and it's schema-valid, and undo the latest change, and that's schema-valid, it's OK
3. ability to group changes, e.g. changes from this version to that version
or if you delete a table row, an XML element, but deleting a column is harder, lots of changes
4. managing dependencies... e.g. 2 changes to a paragraph and then delete it, can't undo the changes unless you undo the paragraph first.
Liam: multiple dependency, e.g. I change a schema _and_ a document, tracking dependencies between documents
Robin_La_F: yes, I think that's OK
Jirka: not sure it's a real use case because e.g. docbook schema never changes
Jim: is this in scope, a higher-order binding, tracking between documents?
Robin_La_F: it's in scope in that the principle of validation would work, out of scope in that what validation might mean isn't part of this
Liam: different example, dependency between two chapters, always want the corresponding versions
Robin_La_F: our proposal is only about a single document; the relationship is part of the CMS
Daniel: syntactic version semantic validaton difference and only handle the syntax?
Robin_La_F: a content management system could handle both, e.g. using the same mechanism, but here we're looking at a single document.
Norm: experience suggests that doing this with a single document is hard enough, let's start with that!
Jim: reminded of Dana Florescu's Time Axis for XQuery
Liam: you could have a document that represented multi-document relationships and track changes in it.
Robin_La_F: proposal has two levels
1. sufficient to track any change but not always optimal
e.g. add and delete of text and attributes
2. add or remove elements without touching content; split and merge elements; move elements
Level 2 is a lot more complicated, but necessary in some situations
e.g. in level 2 you can split a paragraph, or merge two paragraphs
Jim: do the levels layer?
Robin_La_F: level 1 is a subset of level 2
and you can always convert a level 2 changelog and convert to level 1
Daniel: would it be fair to say
that level 1 operates at the DOM level and level 2 operates at
the content level
... example - ruby in Japanese.
Robin_La_F: there's a history & community in XML editor area of using processing instructions rather than namespaces, because it's ignored by schema validation
I think we can accommodate both of those if there's a defined [transformation between them].
Robin_La_F: the 3rd area that comes in is, do we want an external representation or only in the document?
e.g. so I can send you the diffs.
Steven: should we recommend this as an important area for W3C to adopt?
Jim: I think it's a perfect CG candidate
Steven: a CG is fast, can create one in 15 minutes, but it doesn't get you a Recommendation
Alex: this is an important area for HTML
Liam: a WG can have liaisons with other groups.
Jim: worried that a WG might get pulled apart, a fast CG might be able to produce a coherent design
Jirka: a CG can also be joined by people not W3C Members
Daniel: DAV has relevance here too
want to make sure we don't preclude DAV that content management systems use today.
CONSENSUS: start with a CG
Jirka: and a paper at XML Prague in February would be great!
CG: Change Management Markup Community Group
<Jirka> CFP for XML Prague is open till end of November http://www.xmlprague.cz/call-for-papers/
<Steven> FtF at XML Prague
<Steven> CG now created http://www.w3.org/community/change/
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.137 of Date: 2012/09/20 20:19:01 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/Present+Alex_Russel/Present+Alex_Russell/ Succeeded: s/can have/could have/ Succeeded: s/operaet/operate/ Succeeded: s/HTM/HTML/ Succeeded: s/relevence/relevance/ FAILED: s/groups.proposed.#// Found Scribe: liam Inferring ScribeNick: liam Found ScribeNick: liam Present: Steven_Pemberton Jim_Fuller Jirka_Kosek Liam_Quin Robin_Lafontaine Dave_Lewis Daniel_Austin Norm_Walsh Alex_Russell Got date from IRC log name: 31 Oct 2012 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-xmlmemory-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]