Independent User Interface Task Force Teleconference

03 Oct 2012

See also: IRC log


Janina_Sajka, shepazu, hober, Michael_Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Andi_Heath, Art_Barstow, Andy_Heath, Rich, +1.626.841.aaaa, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Shawn, jcraig, Caroline_Jay


<trackbot> Date: 03 October 2012

<janina> Meeting: IndieUI Task Force telecon

<janina> Below]

<scribe> ScribeNick: hober

Admin: Telecon Time Survey http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2012Oct/0001.html

janina: fyi, we've surveyed about different/rotating telcon schedule

<clown> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/54997/2012_meetings/results

janina: the current schedule is late in the day for europe and middle of night for asia
... survey is open through tomorrow
... we'll talk it over on the list and on the call

richardschwerdtfe: what sort of conflicts do we have?

janina: [describes global interest]

MichaelC: each of the two times in the survey would gain us one person who is not currently attending this time
... gain of one person might not be worth it; need more people to vote

Admin: IndieUI Overview Page http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2012Oct/0002.html

janina: the education and outreach wai wg maintains overview pages for each wai activity

<janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2012Oct/0002.html

janina: they've drafted an overview page for the wai indie-ui wg
... please take a look, check for accuracy, etc.
... audience is non-technical
... should be readily understandable, accurate, and comprehensive

<janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2012Oct/0002.html

janina: any questions about this page?

<clown> actual page is here: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/IndieUI_Overview

<shepazu> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/IndieUI_Overview

shepazu: could we take a minute now to skim?

janina: yes

richardschwerdtfe: the introduction only talks about device independent events and not the user context
... could also mention scroll wheel in scrolling example

janina: [introduces Shawn]

<Ryladog> +1 to include AT in Intro

Shawn: we're trying to cover what this is for in the introduction, and then we talk about each document in the documents section
... the intro captures the idea, why we're doing this

richardschwerdtfe: in the first sentence, not just a wide range of devices, but also a wide range of users and the contexts in which they operate
... could use more of a "command" example like "open", instead of a device-tied example like "scroll"
... you might have an "open" event, top open a folder, to open a new row in your document
... or other high-level examples like zoom in, zoom out

shepazu: scroll seems less compelling, it usually has a lot of existing affordances

Shawn: for either zoom or open, what would the sentence be like?

<andy> hoper - sorry - just saw this - I suggested "wide range of user needs and devices"

richardschwerdtfe: "a user operating a web application may wish to open a folder using a broad range of device commands such as a gesture, a voice command, etc. Indie-UI allows the device to send a simple 'open' event to the application regardless of how the user signaled..."
... in both the intro and the documents section

Shawn: would this be an additional example or replacing the existing one?

shepazu: combine the two
... [expands on that]

<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to suggest escape/dismiss example and to say "open" will be too easily confused with "click"

<Ryladog> Better to use the word 'Context' (as Rich suggests) with (use needs, preferences, access device) in parans after it. Example: 'Context' (as Rich suggests) with (use needs, preferences, access device)

jcraig: wordsmithing is probably not the best use of telcon time

<Ryladog> Soory, somehow I muted myself

jcraig: rich's example of open could also be confused by users, like scroll

<Ryladog> Zakim unmute me

jcraig: we could use an escape or dismiss gesture
... lots of people capture ESC key

Ryladog: the word 'context' as rich suggested is key
... important to make this broader, and 'context' does that

Shawn: scroll seems so much stronger for novices
... could you say the same sort of thing for escape or dismiss?

janina: we're not sure what to call it, so it might not be a good example
... zoom is also common, like scroll

Shawn: do you want me to draft wording for zoom?
... is it ok to put out a draft of this with scroll?

shepazu: that's fine

janina: you can send it to the mailing list

clown: if we want to replace the scroll event example, we could use a checkbox
... [describes various ways of toggling a checkbox]

jcraig: checkbox is already covered by click events
... scroll is fine for now, zoom too

<Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to suggest a checkbox as a very concrete case.

jcraig: some examples of escape or dismiss: kbd ESC, voice over has a gesture, android has a back button

andy: re: the "indie ui: user context" paragraph, user settings is too narrow, maybe 'preferences' would be better?

Shawn: we could swap them around, would decouple it from AT

andy: the word 'settings' doesn't say what sort of settings

shepazu: can we wordsmith over email?

janina: i think we should

Shawn: will try to get an email out today

admin: WAI IndieUI WG Telecon on 10 October

janina: those of you who are in the wai wg, we have a brief telcon next week
... for administrative topics
... re: TPAC, our agenda is on our wiki page

<MichaelC> IndieUI TPAC 2012 meeting page

Admin: TPAC; agenda+ Admin: Pointer Events Submission [See

janina: we've had a submission; ac is considering it

ArtB: web events wg welcomes the submission
... if we assume the wg gets created, it affects some web events work
... and our participation in indi-ui tf
... web events will continue working on the touch events v1
... to CR
... we will stop work on touch events v2
... instead we'll work with pointer events wg
... once touch events v1 rec is published, web events wg will close
... so how do web events participants continue participating in this tf?
... most straightforward way would be to ask web events folks to join the wai wg

shepazu: [talks about the pointer events model; prefers it to the touch events model]
... if web events shuts down, don't know what that will mean wrt my involvement in this tf

MichaelC: if that happens, should this tf become joint with pointer events wg?

shepazu: no
... they want to be very focused, don't want to veer off on high-level events

janina: how does the pointer events model handle multiple finger events?

shepazu: it doesn't do gestures, it does multiple fingers

<Zakim> janina, you wanted to ask how pointer events will handle multip-finger touch events

ArtB: we should keep pointer events really narrowly scoped

MichaelC: web events wg participants in this tf are invited to join the wai indie-ui tf

janina: AC voting goes on through the 25th
... not a done deal yet

MichaelC: 4 or 5 people would be affected

Editor's Draft? https://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/actions/open

janina: jcraig, let's have a regular check-in; any updates on the draft?

jcraig: working through the open issues as i have time

<jcraig> action-5?

<trackbot> ACTION-5 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to author draft spec. change for james craig to include place holders for agreed upon events today in -- due 2012-08-29 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/actions/5

jcraig: there's one action item on joseph

clown: can close it or assign it to jcraig:

janina: any questions?

Use Cases Walk-Through; Continued http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements

janina: we should focus a significant amount of time at tpac on use cases

richardschwerdtfe: pick back up at use case 6

<richardschwerdtfe> http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements#S6:_Command_move_the_focus_point_within_a_UI_component_down_to_the_next_focusable_item_within_a_UI_component

<clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements#S6:_Command_move_the_focus_point_within_a_UI_component_down_to_the_next_focusable_item_within_a_UI_component

richardschwerdtfe: if you're in a widget and want to move down in the widget, could have a command for that

jcraig: do we already have something like this?
... it says "move down to the next *focusable* item" instead of just "the next item"
... basically the equivalent of TAB or Shift-TAB

richardschwerdtfe: what terminology would be better?

jcraig: we could just remove the word "focusable"

richardschwerdtfe: if you have a list box, going to each of the items

jcraig: following para might need some wordsmithing, or a note that says this isn't the same as TAB/Shift-TAB

richardschwerdtfe: maybe "within a ui component"?

janina: isn't this about local navigation? "local next"/"local previous"

<Ryladog> FYI........Many User cases in this doc have the typo "supports supports" in the first sentence

jcraig: let's start by taking the word "focusable" out and go from there

<Ryladog> +1 remove word Focus

richardschwerdtfe: do we need an action item to get this into the spec?

jcraig: i think the use cases are clear; we should keep working on them in the wiki
... some of them are already covered, some aren't
... i will do a comparison with the spec
... use case 7 also needs that same change

clown: it shouldn't be down/up, it should be next/previous
... set of items, there's a next/prev relative to where you are

richardschwerdtfe: left & right v. up & down, we need this separate for two-dimensional widgets

Ryladog: also 3D

janina: we decided to put 3D off

clown: in grid, next/prev in row, next/prev in col

richardschwerdtfe: what about a flow diagram?

clown: suppose you have a tree like OS X's Finder
... could be rendered on an iPhone as swiping left/right
... still a tree
... shouldn't be tied to the rendering

<Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to suggest next/previous instead of up/down

janina: agree with clown

Ryladog: for the moment, yes

richardschwerdtfe: how about "in a horizontal direction, next and previous"?

Caroline_Jay: i think this important for grid widgets like date pickers
... i tend to agree with clown

jcraig: use case 6 through 9 are all in this "linear directional navigation" context
... clown had the right idea, this is a general next/previous
... visual left/right is locale dependent

<Ryladog> what about vertical languages?

jcraig: "general next" and "general previous", which might be left/right in ltr languages
... grids might need special directional navigation events
... once you're in a managed focus widget like a grid or a tree, then the next/prev is like "change selected value"
... need to indicate that there's a multi-dimensional value change

<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention s8 and s9. I like Joseph's idea of vertical vs linear

richardschwerdtfe: you might be moving in increments?

jcraig: something like a slider, next notch in slider is incrementing the value of the slider
... but tree widgets have a selection state; current use case for incrementing slider may also apply for these sorts of cases
... we should focus on the primary next/previous instead of left/right
... would be good to have special-cased "vertical next/previous"
... vertical v. linear

andy: isn't this just like tab order anyway?

<clown> "it's"

andy: the case for general next/previous within some order
... what does next/previous mean in a tree with unordered subnodes
... next/prev gets parameter that varies depending on the kind of object

Ryladog: definitely don't use right/left due to vertical and rtl languages

richardschwerdtfe: we've agreed on a next and previous; should i separate out vertical and horizontal?

jcraig: i'll send an email to the list

janina: yes, let's do this on the list

jcraig: it's possible that this is just covered by focus events
... we can have a separate at focus (point of regard focus) different from the kbd focus
... then we don't need next/prev, we just alert the app "this is the item i'm on"

Ryladog: richardschwerdtfe, there's diagonal too

richardschwerdtfe: they had directional work in SVG 1.2 tiny, could look at that

janina: let's try to figure out how to group these for better tpac time
... next meeting in 2 weeks, wai wg in 1 week

RRSAgent: make logs public

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.137 (CVS log)
$Date: 2012/10/03 18:04:30 $

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.137  of Date: 2012/09/20 20:19:01  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/example of open is also confused/example of open could also be confused by users/
Succeeded: s/topisc/topics/
Found ScribeNick: hober
Inferring Scribes: hober
Default Present: Janina_Sajka, shepazu, hober, Michael_Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Andi_Heath, Art_Barstow, Andy_Heath, Rich, +1.626.841.aaaa, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Shawn, jcraig, Caroline_Jay
Present: Janina_Sajka shepazu hober Michael_Cooper Joseph_Scheuhammer Andi_Heath Art_Barstow Andy_Heath Rich +1.626.841.aaaa Katie_Haritos-Shea Shawn jcraig Caroline_Jay
Found Date: 03 Oct 2012
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/10/03-indie-ui-minutes.html
People with action items: 

[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]