See also: IRC log
<fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Sep/0108.html
<fsasaki> scribe: fsasaki
jirka: used source code of the
validator.nu
... currently best validator for html5
... validation engine is used by w3c too
... modified HTML5 to have ITS attributes in the validation
preset
... will submit my code to validator.nu, so in the future
validation with ITS will also be possible in W3C
validator
... only issue: our working draft is not very stable yet
... we can postpone the addition to validator.nu until tpac
meeting
... if you want to try yourself, I have posted links for
offline-validaton
<declan> I think this is the github link: https://github.com/kosek/html5-its-tools
jirka: will be quite smooth to
get our schemas part of w3c validator
... not so sure about validator.nu, but support by w3c
validator will be sufficient
... another tool: created very simple tool that can take input
HTML5 and produces XHTML
... that is, local ITS markup in XML
... useful if you have a toolchain that processes XML
content
... not sure if it's very useful, haven't got a lot of feedback
from implementors
... related question, also on agenda:
... currently our specification is missing a definition of
local markup for XHTML
... for the past we used XML namespaces
... ITS markup was in ITS namespace
... in HTML5 we use its-* attributes
... so it makes more sense to use same prefixed attributes in
XHTML
... I posted that issue on the ML
... outcome of discussion needs to be reflected in ITS 2.0
spec, that is: guidance how to use ITS local markup in
XHTML
shaun: even with XHTML you would
be able to use its-*
... instead of a namespace attribute
... XML syntax would still be OK
... which one is more useful may depend on the tool
... a tool that doesn't know about XHTML, you would want to
transform those things into local markup
... using the HTML like markup might be more friendly to people
doing HTML stuff
jirka: true, but we can do both
approaches, but should have some guidance
... e.g. if you use XHTML internally, in a workflow, you can
use the ITS namespace
... if it is a public web site, prefixed attributes are
better
... in this way you have consistent parsing even with HTML
parser
... so both approaches are OK, but we would need some
explanation in the spec
... there is "polyglott markup", that is: intersection of XHTML
and HTML syntax
... if you use that syntax, you get the same parsing result
with both HTML and XHTML parser
... if you want to use a document in this subset, you need to
use its-* attributes
... ITS namespaced attributes are not allowed in polyglot
... I don't have a preference, but we should mention this in
the spec
shaun: sounds good
pedro: for us it is very important to have an option for XHTML
<scribe> scribe: jirka
<scribe> ACTION: Jirka to draft section about using its-* and its: in XHTML [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/20-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-220 - Draft section about using its-* and its: in XHTML [on Jirka Kosek - due 2012-09-27].
felix: schema refactoring will wait after prague meeting, so spec is more stable
<fsasaki> scribe: fsasaki
jirka: one problems of HTML5 is
lack of extensibility
... in XML you can easily use namespaces
... in spring we had decide which approach to use in
HTML5
... we decided for its-* attributes
... there was some support for this approach in HTML5
spec
... I wasn't 100% sure that if we use such attributes it will
be well received by HTML community
... there are not so many specs that add something to
HTML5
... yesterday chairs of HTML WG introduced a new plan
... goal is to speed up HTML5 recommendation
... one approach is: split some problematic and other parts
into extension specifications
... at the same time they say that the validator will support
such extensions
... so validator (= w3c validator) will support also elements
and attributes from widely supported extensions
... that is good for us because it is common to have such
extensions
... also, mike smith from w3c, said to felix that he has
nothing against adding support HTML5+ITS2.0 once we have
schemas ready
... I'd just like to postpone this until all data categorie are
settled
... so for us it is good
... there was some discussion on HTML mailing list
... saying extensions are normal for HTML5, and having a spec
HTML5+ITS is OK thing
... and validator can support that out of the box
<scribe> scribe: jirka
felix: we still have plan to meet
with HTML WG at TPAC
... Felix is in touch with HTML WG chairs on date/time of joint
meeting
Pedro: We are trying to move clients to HTML5 but we want to prevent compat. problems
Felix: Now you can use either XHTML or HTML with ITS, depending on what's more approapriate for your client
<fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Sep/0086.html
Felix: Dave developed test suite wiki page
<fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Test_Suite_Development
<fsasaki> http://phaedrus.scss.tcd.ie/its2.0/its-testsuite.html
Felix: we need to get
implementors in Prague in order to fill above table
... feedback from W3C about test suite design - it's OK
... only tests shouldn't be so artificial
<fsasaki> http://phaedrus.scss.tcd.ie/its2.0/inputdata/translate/html/translate2html.html
<fsasaki> http://phaedrus.scss.tcd.ie/its2.0/expected/translate/html/translate2HtmlOutput.txt
Felix: we need at least two outputs for each data category
Declan: Output is not useful itself, it's just sort of metadata?
Felix: Yes, we changed this so it
is easy to compare output from various tools.
... you should do also test of real life usage
<fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Sep/0118.html
Felix: above is template for gathering basic information about implementations
see thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Sep/0092.html
Yves: There is no formal definition of overriding in ITS 1.0/2.0. But there is something in tests for ITS 1.0.
<fsasaki> comment from felix: tests = ITS 1.0 tests
Yves: so intent is here in tests for ITS 1.0, we should be backward compatible with ITS 1.0
Olaf: Overriding non-existing value seems quite complicated. I prefer to override only existing values.
Yves: Yes, this would be more intuitive, but it is not compatible with ITS 1.0.
Olaf: Can we change this? It seems that noone implementd this anyway.
Yves: Overriding can get very complex if we start to use pointers and references as well.
Olaf: There must be way how to fix past mistakes.
Felix: We need to discuss this in
Prague.
... in the scope of affected categories
Tadej: Example - one document
annotated by two tools.
... is this legal, can both tools annotate the same
element/attribute?
... we can allow only global annotations
Olaf: We can consider additional
global parameter...
... (sorry I haven't catched it)
<fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Sep/0101.html
Declan: agrees with Olaf
<fsasaki> look at the lq-issue in above mail
felix: describes problem - is inherited global value of data category if only part of it was locally overriden
Olaf: If you set set of parameters globally, you should be able to override part of it only
Felix: We can have document level annotations
<fsasaki> Jirka thinks that we need terminology here
Declan: that would work for mtConfidence
<fsasaki> Jirka we don't have other parameters then its:param in ITS
<fsasaki> Jirka What about compound data category
Tadej: that would work for me as well
<scribe> ACTION: felix to Summarize discussion about overriding [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/20-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-221 - Summarize discussion about overriding [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-09-27].
Meeting adjourned